Individual vs the State

Well I added a bit above, but does SAFE suck? There comes a point where software crosses a threshold. Take the software the software that drives a laser mouse or keyboard.

Yep. 12 years, and nothing works yet.

No offense intended, that is just the nature of software development. By the time you get done the landscape has changed enough it is time to start over…

Take that time for he seed bagging process, the tractor building process, the tractor driving process the tractor refueling process, irrigation process, the fertilization process, the harvesting process, the sorting process, the packaging process the warehousing process the truck loading process, the trucking process, the unloading process the distribution process the stocking process, etc etc etc. Expand that out to every subprocess that supports those process, and the inspection and repair processes.

You could probably automate any one of those processes at great expense and with massive amounts of work, but the work to build such a thing must be cheaper than the labor it replaces, In most cases it is nowhere close… If jobs become more scarce, then labor becomes cheaper and automation gets an even higher bar to compete with. Robots are expensive, and tend to be single purpose. Farmers are rather cheap and can do most anything, they regenerate, and don’t need as many repairs, because they manage to continue working even when mostly broken.

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I don’t have the link but there is a group out there working hard to create printable versions of the 50 machines we would need in the event of a stone age reboot. They have about 14 done including printable heavy equipment. This I find stunning because I thought printed stuff was like stuff made of Legos. They did a back hoe. No back hoe made of legos or styrophoam would cut it.

I care about the quality of work lives, I want it voluntary and good enough that people can maximize what they get from the experience especially in terms of friendship. I want friends working together for mutual benefit in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Less of this stuff where people are pitted against each other.

@Blindsite2k the idealistic socialists wondering about why their socialisn was so brittle or contary to what they were intending have come up with bottom up systems. I think they’ve figured out that means are ends and there is no cheating with coercion, it be must voluntary.

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You’re largely describing the process by which I became an anarchist. Capitalism isn’t against collaboration and neither is anarchism. The issue at hand is force. The fundamental difference between a socialist and an anarchist is one believes in forcing collaboration upon others and one does not. If we can agree it all must be voluntary then we’re basically speaking the same language.

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There are libertarian socialists like Chomsky and anarcho socialists and we had these people even when socialism wasn’t working that well… I suspect the main line has shifted to recognize the “you work more so we don’t have to,” the displacement of automation and the cost of authoritarian top down structures that are generally paranoid and surveilance oriented.

Sure, people are working on it. But the key word is WORKING…

In order for any of it to work people have to WORK. You may be able to print parts, but the fact that you would need to indicates something needs assembled or repaired. None of which is done by machine very easily. Also 3D printers require very specialized resources, that also require WORK to obtain.

Your workless utopia is ludicrous as always. Nothing works without work, and nothing will ever work without work.

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This is why they want AGI or SI stripped of will. If that happens there is a chance this happens change happens instantly. I guess what we want is a world where our bodily needs and depreciation are met by narrow AI.

I think AGI with MRI minus CPZ will produce BMRA.

Whatever. More academic gibberish where you get to ignore reality and continue to ignore any points aside from listening to your own drivel.

There is no vast conspiracy. Things get done in the most cost effective manner possible. Usually that is Work. Nothing will change that for a very long time.

“Scarcity” is remedied by work. Without work, we don’t eat. This is a law above legislation… If people do not work, the supermarket shelves are empty. Not because the evil capitalists made it so. But because there was no packer, no forklift driver, no truck driver, no warehouse person, no stockboy, no cashier, and no customers with access to cars with gasoline and maintenance capable of getting to a shopping center.

If we think that machines will eliminate all work then we are underestimating the amount of work there is to do.

You know exactly what the acronyms mean so the know-nothing crap is wearing thin.

Your stance is like saying the difference between s the US and Ethiopians is work. Americans work harder etc. That is pure BS. Its a head in the sand approach.

Since you cant see it, think of it in military terms. A shipload of quadcons arrive in the Long Beach port and you get tens of thousands of drones that can shoot and have about as much intelligence as a bee and don’t respond well to EMP. They could spread out and indescrimnately snipe for weeks. Where are the soldiers, oh they couls just work and handle this? The nuke is automation. Where is the human based response? Think of SDI, how well do we think that works?

You aren’t seeing because you don’t want to and do the same thing with the changes that people do with denying even the risk or possibility of climate change. When the Brits had mass riots and kids were incarceraring themselves they were asked why and they said they had no future no work no careers, nothing and the stupid British elites on the right said they were lazy. Its over.

Then why are you putting it forth? I certainly didn’t…

You are on your own tangent, I don’t even thing you know what the point of contention is. You just change the topic every rant.

Everyone gets it but you…

Pearls to swine. I am opting out. You obviously just want to argue…

Topic hasn’t changed, basic income in the face of employment displacement by automation. We have to transition now. An optimistic estimate is we have 40 years of work left if we decide to rebuild around a green infrastructure, but even then a basic income that is large enough and secure enough will be needed really as a prerequisiteto keeping the peace.

Provided by what or whom or how? We agree it must be voluntary and we can’t use the old models of taxation and coercion. So how is this to be engineered?

Also @Warren consider that it’s entirely realistic that if we survive the next 50 years or so we could be looking at immortality. They’ve been working on stopping and reversing the aging process for awhile now so your time estimates could be way off. Then there are things like cybernetic enhancement, bioengineering, perhaps even prosthetic bodies, who knows what will come along in he next few decades. We’re discussing creating a decentralized internet man. 30 years ago that would have been science fiction.

Now it seems behind the scenes enemies with a peach treaty Saudi Arabia and Israel now have a common enemy that they want to go after and that is Iran. Did you know Saudi Arabia has nukes now:

That is insane. So what are the odds of stopping the terror that isn’t US sponsored or US co sponsored now? What if we want to ramp down oil too quickly (?) do they start waiving the nuclear saber
to get the world to respond? Is that part of what Israel does behind the scenes?

So you see the world has all these intractable problems but jreighly thinks there aren’t at least as many state SI programs as nuclear programs and, there are likely at least 12 states with nukes now and their could be hundreds of SI programs on the private level. And he thinks this because its all just academic nonsense. These are being pursued like Manhattan projects because people think its not only practical but could yield a solution to the worlds worst problems but more than that they think whoever gets it first will dominate. This is the world we live in.

Its can be a resource based approach or it can be a constant proportionate devaluing or it can be a tax. We may not be big on a tax but that is what the capital cut and the dividend and all of that was relative to worker’s wages all these years- the workers did the blood sweat and tears and often times most of the innovation- when our economies worked for about 3 decades they got 75% but recently they are down to 34% despite increased product- the capitalists are not contributing more but they are taking more- their profit is a tax on wages even if there was some risk in it. It may be coercive and far from perfect but at least in the case of taxing a big successful corporation to correct distribution (remember market leverage is like gravity) its not like anyone will actually be deprived of the good life. On the contrary that money goes and gets spent on them and their competitors but it would keep a market going that would otherwise collapse without a basic income. I see it as a return on the contribution workers have made for the last ten thousand years, its the inheritance of the people who would otherwise find themselves in the role of the worker.

@Warren please use some common sense. WORKERS ARE CAPITALISTS! Trading your labor for capital is what capitalism is! If you agree to be compensated for your labor you are engaging in capitalism and are a capitalist! If you have EVER gone to the grocery store you are a capitalist. Oy va.

Look I have zero issue with someone because they’re rich or have accumulated a mass amount of capital because if they are free to gain wealth so am I. What I have an issue with is limited liability via state intervention through corporate law because it removes accountability for individuals to be held accountable for their actions. I’m also against state issued corporate charters because the state shouldn’t have control of who and who cannot start a business nor should it be creating “persons” that are for all intents and purposes artificial psychopaths. I’m not against people forming a DOA but in that case it’s all voluntary and the source code and charter would be in the open because one would need it to be in order to gain members and support. I think it would be hard to gain support for an openly psychopathic organization but then I could be wrong.

In any event arguing the whole workers vs capitalists is insane. It’s pure lunacy and Red vs Blue propaganda. Workers are capitalists. You want to know the difference between a worker and an eutrapeneur? The worker is working for someone and the entrepeneur somehow got enough funds together to start a business of some sort. That’s all. The rest is statist beaurocracy and politics.

To argue that this kind of propaganda somehow makes coercion justifiable is just sad. What gives you or any individual or group the right to coerce another individual or group to give you their money? Because you want “equality”? Isn’t that called envy and theft?

To be blunt if I’m to be robbed I’d rather it be by a burglar that I’m free to retaliate against and defend myself against opposed to a state that make it legally prohibited to retain one’s own property when the state robs you and morally accepted by the majority for them to do so. In short if taxation is the price of “keeping the peace” it’s not worth it.

There are a bunch of chicken ans egg problems. It assumes every one is an independent contractor with the resources to wait indefinitely and bargain effectively. Its not the case so we end up with unions which the state unfairly on behalf of business trys to limit. It assumes there wont’t be monopoly where all the land is bought up. It assumes media won’t be sponsored, corporate and fascist. It will always become all of these things because it makes monet into a lawless law unto itself, really the most corrupt kind.

When people have enough, wealth is not much of a motivator because it falls into the category of: more after enough. In the unfetterred capitalism situation he who has the gold makes the rules and always creates a situation where people herded along like cattle are made to starve and then strung along with food. This stupified work force is just what brings the capitalist the most comfort because fat and happy he could punch a hole in any one of theses immaciated concentration camp survivors. People become livestock, literal property as in I own you, you are my property to dispose of, I bought and sold off your family.

It was very telling that when full time was being adjusted down to 28 hrs a week because we spent the vast majority of our time on the planet at that rate, that despite in-place automation in the 30s, the capitalists begged for another 25 percent or ridiculous 40hrs work week so they could cream/theive off the top for a surplus to free them from work and allow them to become rich and powerful and lord it over others and better suppress wages. We really don’t need the rich class, its contrubution is small and its theft large and it grows in proportion to poverty. In my opinion they owe what they’ve stolen back with interest and punitive charges.

I don’t care about the occasional millionaire especially if constructive. Why even tax a truely constructive person that makes everyone better off- progressive taxation doesn’t, its point is to tax and jail the parasite into obsurity to protect the public.