Governments blocking Maidsafe

I’m not the person to be asking about technical questions now we are in Rust. I am probably the least competent Rust programmer on the Maidsafe team.

Niall

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By being in the same union with Germany you don’t partake in German success. The euro gives German success a big boost by enslaving the rest with debt and/or Target2 imbalances. Greece and other poor bastards were free to recklessly borrow and spend because the money flew we-know-where. The same freedom is “given” to the rest of deadbeat countries.
It’s going to be fun when it begins to unravel. This QE is fun to watch, but as soon as it stops we’ll be back to 2011 - “unfair” sovereign ratings, official lies, sheeple in panic, etc. If they manage to stop QE (a big if), then we got about year and a half till the next crash.

So, no arguments that governments will block MaidSafe. We can stop commenting on this topic, I suppose?

Why? I was just reading in :stuck_out_tongue: I think the EU-project is gonna fail. I don’t know of people here in Holland who like it. The Dutch paid over 15 billion for Greece and probably they won’t pay us back. I don’t think it was helpful to them either. They should have told the the investors that they were broke (like they were and are) and stop paying back the loans in 2010. After that they should’ve introduce the Drachma again and devalue the thing. It would be great for tourism, people being able to take a holiday in Greece at 30% lower cost. It would’ve helped them. Now they have even more debt, and their hospitals are out of money and medicine. Most of the people got broke.

Note to self *you’re getting offtopic as a mod :wink:

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I see a lot of assertions being thrown about as fact in this thread.

Viewing the world through the prism of politics invariably leads to fact mixing with fiction. It is healthy not to pretend that anyone has all the answers or can read into the future with accuracy on such things.

Unless freedom of choice is at the foundation of society, it is impossible to judge the success of any policy. We simply cannot gauge the demand without complete freedom of choice. Suggesting that the latter results in less success doesn’t really get us very far.

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You’re missing the adjective “necessarily”. For the Northern, Central and Eastern EU countries the peg to the German economy has been a huge economic success. It’s only been the Southern EU countries which previously were low cost manufacturing based which have been decimated because they can’t hold a candle to German manufacturing and can’t compete on cost with the Eastern EU countries. They are trapped in between and didn’t do much to avoid that, and you can see the result.

You’re not wrong on this, but artificially cheap debt lent by the manufacturing powerhouse to consuming countries within the EU was replicated globally between China and the US. It was thought at the time within the EU to be safe if that’s what the US was doing. Both were wrong, but it wasn’t obvious twenty years ago, and the German attitude of debt = guilt meant that personal indebtedness is a personal guiltiness matter, and therefore a personal morality issue, and not the same as debt at the nation state level so therefore the two aren’t connected. It sounds silly, but that’s cultural differences for you.

Anyway, I’m afraid I’ll have to stop my involvement in this thread now. As a contractor for Maidsafe it isn’t appropriate for me to comment here except in a factual context, and I can see this thread will quickly turn into opinion throwing. I will say that my claims about economic facts are generally from OECD data, though my thoughts as to what will happen next in Greece and why are more measured guesses from consuming the same information sources as the ruling elites.

Niall

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Looks like this thread has experienced a coup d’etat for geopolitical aims :-). Getting in back to my original question on the features topic…

As @ned14 detailed in his replies to my question above (before all the geopolitics), that is not the case. As a real world example OpenVPN-UDP can only successfully break through China’s great firewall using pluggable transport obfuscation (via Obfsproxy). Tor also uses pluggable transports (Obfsproxy V4) that apparently allowed it to continue to work when Iran and Kazakhstan implemented deep packet inspection in an attempt to block it.
I do not see how the SAFE Network can avoid being singled out as an “unknown protocol” and blocked without also supporting pluggable transport protocol obfuscation like these other projects have been forced to adopt just to stay connected. As @ned14 says above, “your ISP is highly likely to throttle and shape any unrecognised traffic”.

As a expatriate/software developer I am frequently required to live in some places where I count myself lucky if they just throttle my VPN vs blocking it altogether. That is part of what caught my attention with the MaidSafe project in the first place: I assumed @dirvine vision included being robust against ISP and country level blocking, but this thread has raised some doubts about that assumption. If I am understanding you correctly the RUDP V2.0 plan does not include pluggable transport protocol obfuscation. Instead the preferable recommendation is to move to unadulterated/T3 lines wherever possible?

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So in short: long-term there’s not a whole lot MaidSafe can do to prevent governments from blocking or severely throttling traffic to the MaidSafe network. We can try to disguise traffic to make it more difficult for governments to tell that you’re using MaidSafe, but no solution will be 100% effective. It’s basically just a game of cat and mouse.

For a project better suited to solving this particular problem, have a look at https://projectmeshnet.org/, which aims to decentralize the underlying network infrastucture itself.

As can be concluded just from the above, China’s firewall policy isn’t to block all access to blacklisted sites, it’s to raise the technical bar required to access blacklisted sites. They essentially want to make it inconvenient enough that only a small minority bother on a regular basis, and otherwise leave the ability to read blacklisted content deliberately open. Other countries such as those you mentioned actually do want to ban blacklisted sites entirely, and still others (North Korea) make the internet a whitelisted only place. Interestingly, the current British government also wish to make the UK internet a whitelisted only place by default, but I digress.

Things have changed since the OP last year. There has been a move from C++ to Rust, and RUDP no longer exists. I am not competent in Rust, so it was a bad idea for me to lead out any development or design there, so I am now merely a least level programmer on Maidsafe Rust who modifies existing code mainly to fix problems. I don’t write any fresh code because it takes me forever as I don’t know enough Rust.

So as I mentioned, I’m definitely the wrong person to ask. I can say there is a pluggable transport facility in there, and before my contract ends I may try adding rust-utp as a second available transport to TCP. Past that I don’t know what the plan is (I should add that in April I was on vacation, and most of May I was in conference season mode so I missed all the design and planning meetings at Maidsafe. I really do genuinely not know what’s planned nor do I entirely understand the big picture, I’m too out of the loop to say anything with any confidence).

Niall

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I understand that it’s not instantaneous - from the time you connect it takes them a while to start dropping packets or doing other tricks (similar to your experience), so it’s enough time to download news, books, blog postos and things like that. That’s what matters.

I don’t know how bootstrapping works with MaidSafe, maybe the initial list is indeed static.

The trick really will be gaining corporate users early on – SAFE is a great technology for replacing data centers for a lot of small and mid-sized businesses. It turns security inside out and upside down - so normal hacking avenues are all defeated…

Once there is a compelling business interest in SAFE operation, ISP’s and governments will have an uphill battle to try to block it…

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@ned14

As a contractor for Maidsafe it isn’t appropriate for me to comment here except in a factual context…

I don’t see why, and for me it would be a real loss, and perhaps contrary to the spirit of the project!

Yes the thread went off topic, and we mods have not been jumping in to affect that… but it was quality discussion! And nobody complained… (Yet) always my yardstick for when to pay more attention.

Glad to have you back Niall. I like your voice.

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Well, thank you for saying so. I’ve actually always been here just not posting, I check for new topics every week or so. However the part of each year leading up to May is exceptionally busy for me, so from January to end of March I was up till 4am each night working on the next release of Boost.AFIO after pulling a work day for Maidsafe and spending time with the family. In April I took an extended vacation to recharge the batteries, and then got to work on my C++ Now presentation and accompanying Handbook of Best Practices in C++ 11/14 libraries, again after Maidsafe and family hours, until I presented two weeks ago in Colorado. The next big deadline for me is end of July when Boost.AFIO comes up for peer review, so plenty of after hours work to do between now and then to prepare for that!

Anyway, if you look back on all my posts here, they have always been factual corrections or factually driven. On more than one occasion I have refused to present my non-factual personal opinions on topics, and the above earlier discussion is a good example. It simply isn’t professional in a contractual situation to discuss politics/religion/beliefs, unless your contracted role is to do so.

Niall

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One thing to consider…

If anyone has got access beyond an aggressive firewall, they can then save that to their vault inside the firewall.

Maybe these uber firewalls attempt to filter peer to peer too, but wish mesh nets in the mix, it would only take one leak for it to be out on the wild locally.

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U.N. report: Encryption is important to human rights — and backdoors undermine it

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Its going to be an arms race and SAFE is the spirit of a new network that can win the race. There will be apps built on top of SAFE, but SAFE will also develop down through a SAFE OS into a network made up of end user owned and controlled hardware. That hardware will be optimized to run SAFE and make use of tech like SDR mesh and LiFi. If SAFE coin is successful and can incentivise the build out of these pieces, they will deploy very quickly. The bitcoin specialized hardware build out set a precedent.

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[quote=“ned14, post:41, topic:1851”]
So as I mentioned, I’m definitely the wrong person to ask. I can say there is a pluggable transport facility in there, and before my contract ends I may try adding rust-utp as a second available transport to TCP. Past that I don’t know what the plan[/quote]

Thanks very much for that Niall. It would be very interesting if someone dealing with the details of the protocol obfuscation system could weigh in sometime. As in Tor/OpenVPN-UDP examples linked above, protocol obfuscation is a make or break issue for maintaining a SAFE Network connection from many countries.

:wink: Yip, crust is multi protocol, randomised port networking. With added encryption then it’s pretty obfuscated. Later on data flows will also get attention making deep packet inspection harder. Measures such as counting entropy and flow rates can be overcome as well. So beyond existing mechanisms.

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Thanks David went off to read more on Crust. Defiantly interested in the Crust API for adding new pluggable transports and although it is early days yet, looking forward to seeing how new transports/timings etc are to be added/updated and shared between nodes etc. Since it is a whack a mole game I guess it will mostly be being constantly updated and refined by us users most affected by censorship. Simply looking like https/443 works very well in some places while Tor PTs such as obs/dust2 in others. Encrypted packets on random ports are being blocked by the Great Firewall of China (GFC) and other countries for some time now and it seems to take less time to be detected and blocked each year. Best results if you look like some other “approved” protocol and can change between them as then they have to separate from the herd which takes much more detective work.
The Chinese are one of the biggest adopters of Bitcoin and I am sure the privacy and security of SafeCoin will be a big draw card there. It would be a shame if Safe Network cannot not get through the GFC reliably, but maybe very damaging if it got through long enough for widespread adoption only for the GFC to suddenly cut off a large amount of users, and Crust pluggable transports is not nimble enough to gracefully recover using a different transport.

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Law makers are adding another vote for the protocol obfuscation system, i.e. ability to disguise encrypted traffic using skype, game, VOIP, … headers and packet signatures.

From /. (emphasis mine):
Europe’s ‘Net Neutrality’ Could Allow Throttling of Torrents and VPNs
TorrentFreak reports that the European Parliament is approaching a vote on new telecom regulations that aim to implement net neutrality throughout EU member states. Unfortunately, the legislation hinges on a few key amendments, and experts are warning about the consequences should those amendments fail to pass. “These amendments will ensure that specific types of traffic aren’t throttled around the clock, for example. The current language would allow ISPs to throttle BitTorrent traffic permanently if that would optimize overall ‘transmission quality.’ This is not a far-fetched argument, since torrent traffic can be quite demanding on a network.” That’s not the only concern: “Besides file-sharing traffic the proposed legislation also allows Internet providers to interfere with encrypted traffic, including VPN connections. Since encrypted traffic can’t be classified though deep packet inspection, ISPs may choose to de-prioritize it altogether.

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I am surprised that this is surprising to anyone.

Just on this forum, anyone can see the enormous amount of spilled keystrokes that Net Neutrality fanboys spent on trying to persuade free market supporters that Net Neutrality is going to be great for everyone. Just leave it to the State and everything will be sorted out.

Absolutely hilarious! :smile:

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