Forget Safecoin for end user of SafeNetwork. Think USD

Divisibility is solvable as I understand it (@neo had one solution which I think flies), but until MaidSafe get to looking at Safecoin the discussion remains community only and not RFC level.

Regarding offering free storage, you’ll find lots of discussion about this too. It is something we might do if it can be done without risking the network - but if every new account gets 100GB free, it creates a big problem - individuals register lots of accounts, and by reselling this becomes a business model, as well as an easy way to attack the network by filling all that free space with garbage.

Again, when we get to designing the economics (RFC stage) this may be looked at because, as you highlight, it will help adoption, but there are alternatives (discussed in the topics talking about offering free storage, and ways to help adoption). For example, providing free Safecoin for early adopters. Schemes to encourage people to send invites to friends, with a Safecoin they’ve earned etc.

As for acquiring Safecoin, the aim is that earning Safecoin should be easy for as many people as possible. There’s still a problem here though (again in those discussions), that earning your first Safecoin will take some time and that’s not good, so we may still want to have easy ways for people to obtain at least one free Safecoin, provided it can be done without mass fraud. So this would be like your free 100GB (or rather whatever a Safecoin will buy at the time).

There will be some who can’t earn Safecoin, but can maybe at least try it with a first free Safecoin and then move to buying on an exchange. There will be easy ways to buy Safecoin, because farmers will want to sell it!

So I’m still not sure if you are trying to solve a problem that we won’t have, or if your ideas can overcome these issues in a better way than what I’ve been expecting we’ll end up with. But as I say, these things aren’t decided, just kicked around so far. I think MaidSafe may come up with new ideas too when they begin to focus on this.

It’s good to have your input and such a different perspective on how to tackle these things.

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I wish that those fringe markets were adopting it later.
This network is bigger than that, and by being first associated with black markets may limit it’s perception on its capabilities.
There are big advantages for corporations and small business owners, and tackling these problems first would generate a good feedback for the general public to use it.

It is like a ceramic knife being promoted for cooking, and then getting some edge cases of misuse in crimes; compared to a knife mainly promoted for killing and bypassing metal detectors.
It is the same tool, and the way you frame it will affect how it is perceived the first time.

Of course it is inevitable the eventual illegal usage of it, but there are plenty of legally profitable applications for the enterprises, and we should be focusing to target those needs before the dark markets start to pop up.
You don’t want the first direct association to be “ah, the SafeNetwork? The super deep web?”, if that is the first thing that comes to the mind definitely no business will want to experiment with it.

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All Banks by legislation have the obligation to save documents and prove for a timespan of 10 years that this document has not been altered.
At the moment, saving those documents internally and signing it with a third party certificate is a popular way to do this.
With blockchains, publishing a hash of that documents or a collection of documents became another possible solution.
With SAFE, you could simply save the document on the network, and have an unalterable version of your document.

So if we solve the problem to store a document with a timestamp and prove it has not been altered in the mean time, you might have many banks interested in the network, giving it credit…

On a side note, apparently, businesses today pay up to 0.29$ to have their documents stamped on a blockchain (http://stampd.io/).

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One way to offer free storage is something I suggested year long ago - let the farmers decide how charitable they wish to be, which would form a pool of free storage. If it runs out, farmers would need to decide whether they wanted to offer more or not. This would keep a cap on the network filling up or having to define a magic number, etc.

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Before banks put documents on SAFE network, trust me, Assange will be awarded the peace nobel Prize. They are not tech savyy enough and will be distrustful for years. Private bank like HSBC in Geneva have an existential risk if data leak (like in the Falciani case)

Besides, you all assume that SAFE will get popular early at a corporate level, but in my opinion it will come years later. Fringe market will be first because they have a real need for anonymous storage, whatever the price. Corporate just want to pay cheaper, and they will wait for proven security before they go for it.

And then can you imagine banks putting data on a “super dark web”. It has reputational issues if media picks up the story.

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@SwissPrivateBanker I agree there are issues that may hold banks and other organisations back, but note that banks have been quick to pick up blockchain tech so you may be overly pessimistic because SAFEnetwork applications are much simpler to build and understand than blockchain apps and use.

However, I make no assumptions about banks or big business using SAFEnetwork early on. We’ll start with geeks and other niches (security, privacy, censorship related), and gradually pick up ordinary users.

At this stage - once it’s been road tested and people who’ve used it begin to recognise the potential and opportunities - I think there are several factors which could cause growth to ramp up:

  • cost - SAFE could be a free cloud for a lot of individuals, small enterprises, charities etc. Also kicking in for wave after wave of ever bigger organisations as time passes. And for those who can’t earn enough to pay for use it will still be cheap because: no shareholders, overheads, variable costs etc
  • earning potential - there’s a lot of people out there in the crypto community - and who know a bit about bitcoin but aren’t geeks - who are aware of the potential that bitcoin once offered, but no longer exists for individuals. When people realise almost anyone can earn Safecoin, and that Safecoin is a better bitcoin, take up could be huge, the best ever, everyone will be saying so :wink:
  • ease of use -> productivity & cost savings - I think even we will be surprised at SAFEnetwork’s potential to beat all other platforms on usability (aka productivity), maintenance, security and other cost drivers because it not only simplifies usability of cloud-style applications, it also unifies them all under the same UI. For Windows, Mac, Linux, desktop and mobile: it will be the same UI, the same apps, and all your data available - regardless of the OS or device you are using. This could mean big increases in productivity, and massive reductions in IT infrastructure related costs. So this could be a major driver for adoption, HUGE, even better than the best ever… :wink:
  • innovation - with this new platform come new capabilities, and that will spawn innovation. It will create a new open landscape on which developers will imagine and build new things, and which companies will want to turn from opportunity into business. I think we should anticipate the excitement of bitcoin multiplied by a large factor for two reasons: the hurdle for developing on SAFEnetwork will be very low. Basic web skills will be enough. And because the apps built will have an exceptionally good UI without all the difficulties of bitcoin, which has only recently managed to create a wallet that someone without a PhD could use reliably.

EDIT: Another factor, which I add now because I’ve just realised how important it will be when it comes to which projects will survive and which will not:

  • vulnerability - the ability to survive government attacks, both technical (filtering, blocking etc) and otherwise. It seems to me that all these projects are getting an easy ride for now, but that governments are in general becoming more controlling and authoritarian, so SAFEnetwork may also have a big advantage in having minimised its reliance on vulnerable Internet services and easily blocked protocols.

Those are the things that spring to mind :slight_smile:

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Another “OH the sickos will be the users”

Ummm no there is NOT just 3 reasons why ANYONE would use the SAFE network. Why would it be, history doesn’t bear that out. Who uses encryption now. Well everyone that is who. You are using it now viewing this forum.

Already is cheap. Expect it to be as cheap as storing on a Hard Drive now. People (farmers) are supplying their spare resource which has a zero cost to them so the price will level out at a resonable price as farmers come on line.

Will be because the last few “release-candidate” networks will be using test-safecoin (zero cost) and the data stored will be free and remain as data-republish will be operational by then and earned test-safecoin will become safecoin. (well thats the plan anyhow)

beta through the release-candidate networks will do that nicely

But the point of SAFE coin is for the users, both farmers and storers see the SAFEcoin and can use it for transactions. To do differently is to change the fundamentals of SAFEcoin

The only issue with divisibility is what model we wish to use and the benefits/drawbacks of each model. But it can be solved very easy, but actually doesn’t need solving until the price is way too high and/or micro-transaction functionality is desired.

Un-needed complexity and why would we wish to copy DASH with a gamable system of masternodes and centralises profits to the already rich. Also we don’t want to duplicate the failings of the banking system or blockchains.

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Dollar (fiat) is a massive scam. Fiat doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. What does 1 dollar equal to? … crickets

Yeah exactly. It’s not backed up by gold or silver. It is backed by faith.

Cryptos will abolish the banking system.

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And I was thinking whose “dollar” would we use? USD for me is flaky, changing all the time in my country and as bad as BTC. If I buy something in USD then I check the current exchange rate before buying.

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Think of every android or ios app that charges fiat for tokens. no one has trouble navigating those types of transactions. if you wanted it to be seemless for end users then a 3rd part can be fiat onramp and sell safecoins, store them in an app for you until you redeem them for storage, or transfer elsewhere.

giving away introductory free bits leads to the spam issue we saw in the past weeks…

lastly i tend to ignore the illegal/confidential/illegal business side of things because the killer bit for safecoin in my opinion is:
one time setup fee web hosting for life… create a static website and buy some data storage with safecoin and it’ll live forever, no more paying hosting companies monthly. or pay a little more for mutable data and make a dynamic website and it’ll live forever.

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I would not say that banks are not tech savvy, they are just very conservative.

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Dollar (fiat) is a massive scam. Fiat doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. What does 1 dollar equal to? … crickets

Yeah exactly. It’s not backed up by gold or silver. It is backed by faith.

Dollars have more behind them than any crypto-currency. Why is a bitcoin valuable? Because we have faith that other people will want bitcoin in the future. If the bitcoin market starts doing dangerous things, what can we do? On the other hand if the dollar takes a nose dive, it’s a safe bet that Janet Yellen will be working to put out the fire immediately.

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I agree. There are certain amount dollars in each city / country. It is much harder to determine the value. Some cities may not value dollars as much as other cities.

I easily understand the supply and demand based on labor. An .15 ounce silver for gallon of milk. That is much easier to understand than three dollars for one gallon of milk. Three dollars of what?

I’ll give you three faiths for one gallon of milk.
Praise the god
Praise the lord
And lastly, I pray for you.

In safenet,

one safecoin exchanged for one safe_milkscoins(one gallon of milk.) Autonomously balanced based on calculated of milk flow rate, and demand. Oops, I just gave out a free idea. :wink:

Measuring bitcoin in dollars is absurd.

Bitcoins are valued based on two output; the value of the exchange itself, and electricity. Miners has to dig out the minerals, to feed the power plant to generate electricity. People buy electricity from the powerplant. The powerplant offers rate exchange. Bitcoin already has initial value right off the bat. With bitcoin, we know for certain how much it is valued. .01btc for 1kw. That is the proper design for bitcoin. It does not violate the Mises regression theorem.

Another case is bitcoin should be backed by gold.

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Micro-transaction should be desired from the get go, if it wasn’t crystal clear here is why:



https://softwareengineeringdaily.com/2017/04/21/21-with-balaji-srinivasan/

It would also help if every data uploaded on the SAFE Network is payable, so for instant you uploaded an image and I want to pay you like 1 SAFEcoin for that specific image, I should be able to do so by the image automatically incorporating your publickey/publicID. Same goes if I just want to pay you for your nice website, I should just be able to copy your url and pay. If I could pay safe://whyilovethesafenetwork.neo it could also give you direct feedback which page I like, you can go wild with this and just quote pay something that you said specifically on your webpage. If pubkeys are not woven into everything we’re uploading, we might as well stick to old ideas like emailing each other to ask for a pubkey to pay for a content.

To give an idea the demo app should almost work like this, but if somebody upload the same data as you they get another pubkey, because they logged in with different creds.
https://coreyphillips.github.io/

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People also pay taxes on that and it isn’t at all anonymous. Anything involving fiat compromises security. Better to just have a straight up currency exchange. Leave SAFE as it is and then sell your safecoin for your fiat currency of choice.

Then you don’t understand the importance of an anonymous and decentralized internet or what we’re trying to build here. If the SAFE network was based on USD I would not use it. I would wait until it was forked and used a secure cryptocurrency. Fiat is not worth my time or money. In fact is SAFE had proposed that it was using a fiat currency I wouldn’t even have gotten involved in this project and written it off as another dead project or money making scam. It’s the fact it DOESN’T use fiat that makes the difference. It’s the fact it offers true anonymity and decentralization and security for everyone that makes the difference. It’s not just another dropbox or skype its’ a truly decentralized internet and that should not be compromised because some lazy ignorant people don’t want to learn how to use a currency exchange.

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Your nick totally turns be off, but I welcome you regardless :wink:

There are soooo many other reasons to use the network!

What I hope will happen is that I will just login once every session, and will never have to use another pasword whatsoever until I decide to logout and call it a day. If I have a productive day atm, I start the computer and probably use 20 to 30 passwords, 10 of them multiple times a day. I probably have around 100 different passwords or even more, and it keeps growing because nowadays every site, no matter what they offer seems to require an account at some point. This will hopefully be history with the safenet, without reducing security, ofc!

Honestly for this alone I want the safenet. Currently no matter how many of our precious currencies we spend, there’s just no service or possible way to achieve that.

//edit don’t get me started on syncing devices!!

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I agree with your responses to me. Unfortunate if my mobile tokens app reference was interpreted as a demand, was just offering an idea to make it easier for OP to wrap their head around the fact that its not going to be an issue. and just because i dont persnally value the need for illegal/confidential/illegal business and have my own thoughts on why safenet can have enormous value doesnt mean i can’t understand the value in other aspects of it.

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For years I have been deeply passionate about decentralization of power, money and governance. There are few who would argue that the SAFEnetwork is the 100 trillion kilogram gorilla in the room. When SAFE is online for good and functions even half as good as it seems it will, well in that exact moment almost 99% of every network/Internet/web-application/cryptocurrency will suddenly have an expiration date.

When people asked me a couple of years ago whether SAFE would be adopted quickly I did not hesitate in saying there is no doubt it will be adopted by the world as fast as they can install the software and hardware. The reason is it solves so many of the largest pain points and problems the world suffers from.

Fast forward and look at the current landscape of the cryptocurrency/asset ecosystem…what is dominating the total market capitalization and every new crypto-news outlet? When you look at current #2 ETH, Angel funded by Goldman Sacks and already proven they have no issue changing history and destroying any intrinsic value the platform may have had. #3 Ripple, hopefully I need not mention why it has zero decentralized characteristics. #1 Bitcoin, definitely open to a reasonable discussion about whether it is decentralized, but it doesn’t take much time to realize the bitcoin today is much more centralized than two years ago. I would argue the pure fact that 90%+ of BTC trading happens on centralized exchanges (which provides no potential value bitcoin initially offered), less than a dozen organizations control majority of mining and Antbleed revelations alone showing 70% of the entire miner network being susceptible further demonstrates where I am going. If that is not enough to paint a picture of how centralized we have become, then look into the scaling debates.

In my opinion there is no doubt the centralized status quo (Central Banking/Governments/Industry) has leveraged their ability to scale rapidly and have been extremely effective in controlling the narrative of how these disruptive technologies with massive world socioeconomic potential will be perceived by the masses.

This all may sound pretty pessimistic, but the amazing thing that gives me such great hope is that in spite of the perceived insurmountable strength of hierarchal centralized systems have they are still losing…just very slowly. Besides Maidsafe and there unimaginable successes, the perfect example of how decentralization cannot be stopped, but only slowed is the worlds first and still most effective decentralized exchange (DEX)…BitShares. What caught the attention of so many initially was what also lead to years of unrelenting attacks at every level. BitShares is probably the only crypto on earth that has been proclaimed dead more times than Bitcoin and especially towards BitShares most disruptive invention…the bitUSD. BitUSD is a digital USD except it is actually backed by provable, immutable, transparent, collateral (Minimum 175% tradable value) asset. In spite of the ever growing capital strength of central exchanges/banks and their unrelenting attacks towards any USD pegged asset (Especially one with decentralized backing), BitShares is stronger today than ever. The most recent untethering of “Tether” and global USD wire boycott (13 banks control every USD wire in the world) for all foreign BTC companies has only accelerated the awakening of the limitations these centralized powers. All that has been required is time, which for people that saw the value years ago it is painful…but I don’t think we should except anything less for the SAFEnetwork. Especially since BitShares just challenges failed fiats…SAFEnetwork stands to disrupt much, much more.

That is the interesting thing about this thread and what motivated me enough to share in detail my thoughts. Since I changed my bitcoin conversation and started talking to people about a digital US dollar just like they see in their bank account, paypal, allipay, etc…except no one can censor or seize (bitUSD)…there is zero confusion or resistance. The reason is there is nothing new, technical or abstract beyond the mental construct of money than what has already been programmed to know.

Although IMHO it should definitely NOT BE THE SAFEnetwork protocol level that deals with this fiat pegging bridge to bring further adoption of decentralized technologies. Especially since there is a decentralized layer that has perfected it over several years and is coincidently seeing marked uptake in adoption. All we will have to do is create a smart contract bridge between SafeCoin and a BitShares SmartCoin…which is already complete in a simplistic way and because I follow both communites very closely I will predict that the exact technology SafeCoin will need for exchange will be provided by BitShares.

Something to think about. Say you are the one who holds enough power to leverage significant control over centralized points of value exchange…banks/btc-exhcanges/centrally-focused-blockchains-governance. Now imagine you are presented with all the capabilities of SafeCoin. Are you going to say ‘hey I have been waiting for such an amazing technology that will evaporate any power I still have after bitcoin’…No, you are going to prevent its adoption in every possible way. I predict we are going to hear from all major exchanges…“yes, we are working on interoperability but SafeCoin is just so complex that it could take years before it is functional for mass use” (sound familiar).

Well the good news is we can start now on changing that narrative. Lets start by supporting other decentralized technologies that will be strengthened by SafeCoin and not destroyed by its adoption. My recommendation is to move the majority of MAID trading to BitShares DEX where there is already strong communities in Asia, Europe (Including Eastern), North America and South America.

I will start a specific thread on how people can get involved today in creating this USD backed by SafeCoin the OP describes before SafeCoin is even released through trading MAID and bitUSD/bitCNY/bitRUB/bitEURO/bitGold with bots running on the DEX.

Here is the PDF tutorial: https://bit.ly/DEXmarketMaker-bits-bots-pdf

Here is the Steemit (Also built with Graphene Blockchain) post: https://steemit.com/bitshares/@scythian/dex-market-maker-tutorial-bits-and-btsbots

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Can you recommend a good high-level introduction to Bitshares?

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