Feedback from outside the "SAFE space"

Marketing
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I assumed that the example would be “How to make your own interactive SAFE guestbook” or something like that, or rather, that there would be several examples to do basic/common tasks.

I do know that there is no “server-side code”, BTW.

I have lots of experience with both JavaScript and coding things in general. I’m not confused by the actual syntax, but rather the amount of incomprehensible low-level-looking code that is apparently needed, which surprised me when I saw the “basic” example.

For SAFE to succeed, I’m afraid there needs to be a whole series of ultra-logical real-world examples which show you, richly commented, why SAFE makes it so blissful to code apps and not have to worry about all these things that are a nightmare at best and makes it impossible for many of us to do anything on the “clearnet”. I really feel that SAFE might be onto something huge, and this idea of not having any “infrastructure” to worry about is extreme appealing. This is why it’s so frustrating that there is zero coherent information (that I can find) which plainly lays out how SAFE is used in practical, non-fuzzy terms.

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Now we’re getting somewhere of use. I see what you mean and I take it you’re looking for some level of abstraction that makes dealing with low level stuff much easier. There is official work that needs to be done here but in due time. The Maidsafe devs are busy building a network to launch so our apps have a home eventually. So not that I entirely disagree with your most recent post but I think such stark criticisms from @BIGbtc and yourself earlier in the thread are less helpful than what was probably intended, so we’ll give you both guys the benefit of the doubt and move on :wink:

These are just somewhere to start and I hope this helps. Also be sure to visit the dev forum which has a lot of great answers to many beginner questions. Perhaps starting here good luck and don’t get too discouraged too quickly, this is a great project and the community here really is second to none!

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It might also be worth getting in touch with @DGeddes with some specifics on what you would find helpful.

He’s the first line of support on these things, and he’s pulling together tutorial content for the SAFE Academy, so I’m sure he’d be all ears!

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@EvilMaid - feel free to compile a list of questions and fire them at me…

We know that the guides need a little tweaking here and there - we’re currently working on that - but we thought it was better to have something, even if it wasn’t perfect, out for people to start getting to grips with.

David

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@BIGbtc - Can you please PM me. If you feel that I or anyone here at MaidSafe has used insensitive terminology in our communications with you then I’d like to know about it and I’ll certainly deal with it.

David.

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I understand that you find the requirements of the forum account to test an unecessary burden.
It is already explained in this topic why this is at the moment or that there are alternatives (mock routing).
I just want to mention that you’ve only have to read an extra 26 minutes to be able to test Alpha 2.
That doesn’t take like forever, in my opinion. So try to stay joyful, you’ll get there :wink:

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This is the topic “Feedback from outside the “SAFE space”.”

With an apparent genuine effort by @EvilMaid to make a point about how convoluted every intro of SAFEnet is.

His/her post is met with:

“hm? if you’re a dev then i assume you understand that SAFE connections can be embedded in every app you want - even without the user knowing you are using safe technology”

And from a mod whom I respect and consider part of the @maidsafe team who blows the OP off, “Interesting first post. As a newcomer why not just ask instead of assuming things and throwing around accusations? Honestly you’d save yourself a lot of bother and everyone else a feeling of mild irritation.”

And from a prominent and respected community member “To me it’s just trolling so I tend to ignore it.”

Another Mod focuses on how lucky the OP is his post is allowed to stay up. “Too right and as you know @happybeing we believe in letting people have their say as long as its not offensive, illegal or attacking others personally. Thus no action on the OP”

While there are people here genuinely interested in helping. Like the very first response from David and @DavidMc0 @Dimitar and some others, I see little to no effort to acknowledge or discuss all the OP issues, only those that would be considered an insult to Maidsafe. Avoiding reality.

Oh sure the OP got nasty, but come on, Maidsafe can take a few jabs, no?

The post is titled “Feedback from outside the “SAFE space”", not to be confused with “send me links to other places where I can get more confused”. While the OP did go overboard many here go apeshit when somebody challenges this project, questions the delays, questions why there has not been a certain level of progress, get indignant when asked why no roadmap exists. And on a personal note, Im quite disappointed that there is no new website that is blowing the minds of anyone asking the question; WHAT IS MAIDSAFE? I know shit happens, but gimme a break, 16 years into this project which is going to change the internet as we know it - 4 years since big promises were made during a financing - and there is still no efficient way to feed the voracious appetites of all those that could be app builders, Maidsafe developers, interest from c-suite techs, or just average blows who interested in new business paradigms.

Step back and take a look at all of this for a minute. How many people are NOT participating in this project but could be? How many opportunities has Maidsafe missed because this community is thin skinned?

I witnessed here in this forum more patience by community members giving a full pass to the biggest scammer promising some pie-in-the-sky BS decentralized exchange than for people bring real concerns to light.

This "Feedback from outside the “SAFE space” is real feedback. Use it to your advantage.

Good luck to all on the @maidsafe team.

Note: I apoligize to the @maidsafe team for making the broad claim of treating the OP like a bag of shit. I appreciate the effort by @DGeddes reaching out.

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Here’s the direct link to the primer:

https://maidsafe.net/docs/Safe%20Network%20Primer.pdf

It won’t help you develop an app, but will help get a fuller picture of what the Safe network is.

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That was not a Maidsafe team member.

That was not a Maidsafe team member.

That was not a Maidsafe team member.

If you are going to accuse the Maidsafe Staff then at least accuse them of something they have done and not what others have done.

You are correct that some replies have not been the best but to accuse the Maidsafe team of those things is dishonest and just point scoring (mis)using this person’s topic to do so. Not good form. As @DGeddes says this is a serious situation and the Maidsafe team have taken notice and are currently addressing those issues which will take time to fix. But you come in and try to put them down using dishonesty. The Maidsafe Team have done the opposite to what you say and are actively trying to help. Of the 2 maidsafe team that responded they both were trying to be helpful and were respectful, the opposite of your claims.

EDIT:

This tops the it all

NONE of the Maidsafe team critised anyone or were in anyway not respectful and helpful to Mr Evil. And to make it worse the only other @Maidsafe team member to respond was David so your comment makes this even worse that you are now accusing him of being nasty to the OP and yet reading his post, he was first to respond and reached out to the OP to help.

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Yes you are correct in pointing out that I apologized. I had been referencing the mods here and in particular @JPL comments whom I said I considered part of the Maidsafe team. Note where I pointed out a positive where David offered assistance. But of course this is the real issue here. I’m the villian @neo. I’m happy to take your heat if it means something can come from this discussion. As far as me being dishonest, I think you are misguided.

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Same

Nope, the @maidsafe is VERY specific and refers ONLY to the Maidsafe company staff.

The Mods are not staff and we are just community members. and herein is the dishonesty. The @maidsafe were respectful and helpful, and ONLY one or more of the community and/or mods were not quite so. So to claim ANY of the @maidsafe were not respectful & helpful is dishonest. NONE of them were critical of Mr. Evil. And to include community members and/or mods as @maidsafe is misrepresentation of the truth

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Too funny. Mr. Evil … many can see much more from your post than you think. Maidsafe has my apology for the broad sweep. That’s all that’s important to me.

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He chose the name “evil maid” not me and sounds like the movies reference :smiley:

EDIT:

As long as we agree that none of @maidsafe were guilty and you were referring to others.

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I sat down to read that Primer PDF, but at page 11, it lost me with this confusing part:

Petar Maymounkov and David Mazières released the Kademlia distributed hash table in 2002. The
idea is that nodes in a network overlay the basic network layer with a different node identification
system. So a node (in this case a Vault) could have an IP address of 96.251.182.97 while it uses
17846cb8a4b53c9e44c616d2415a15984283eee975a1dac8f488dd91d0aed1cd as a unique 256-bit
address in XOR space.
Bitwise exclusive OR (XOR) has the feature that each address has a unique distance to any other
address in the entire address range. XOR distance bears no relation to physical distance. Indeed two
pieces of data on the network may be very close XOR-wise but be sitting on machines located on
opposite sides of the world.
MaidSafe came up with an enhancement to Kademlia by splitting the whole 256-bit address range
into so-called ‘Disjoint Sections’, or Sections for short. A 256-bit address space has 2
256 -1 possible addresses which is an extremely large number to manage, but it can be split up into smaller Sections based on address, with each Section being managed by a small group of Vaults.

This often happens to me. I follow something for a while, and then I hit a brick wall as what I read no longer makes any sense to me. Up until that point, it seemed logical, and I was eager to see where it would lead. Sadly, I can’t get past page 11 without skipping parts, which can’t be good for the comprehension of the rest of the document…

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Not to downplay your suggestion but this is just one persons perspective, which is valuable but again your criticism isn’t necessarily helpful in this regard. Of course if we can’t offer a solution or guidance then all we’re left with is opinion but sadly that just doesn’t cut it all the time. The primer is something for everyone, technical or non technical, and we know how well attempting to please everyone goes. I personally think it’s a very balanced document (in my humble opinion). Did you grasp everything in the bitcoin white paper? Satoshi probably won’t be editing it for us if we have any complaints unfortunately. Being a little tongue and cheek there but I believe the primer is intended to give some historical background of the projects origins, some high level overview of its features, whilst giving some technical details to those who may be skeptical and in that respect I think it achieves its its purpose.

Perhaps just skip the technical parts and don’t get discouraged so easily?

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In case the more-likely reference is being missed, ‘evil maid’ is a type of rootkit attack:

An example of such an attack on disk encryption is the “evil maid attack”, in which an attacker installs a bootkit on an unattended computer. The envisioned scenario is a maid sneaking in the hotel room where the victims left their hardware.

As for the rest of this thread, jeez lighten up everyone… things aren’t perfect let’s try to improve from the feedback (of all kinds) and leave the egos at the door.

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Hello all,

Firstly I would like to thank all who have contributed here - I’m reminded of a quote I almost remembered correctly but actually had to search for to make sure:

“Freedom is hammered out on the anvil of discussion, dissent, and debate.”

Hubert H. Humphrey.

We truly appreciate all the feedback we get - we’re dedicated to making the SAFE project a success but we’re not going to get there alone so if there’s things that need improving along the way then we’ll improve them.

It might take us a little while to get the DevHub documentation up to the standard that we’d all like to see so we’d like to thank you for your patience and understand while we do so.

David.

I think I’ve remembered everyone:
@evilmaid, @bigbtc, @jpl, @warren, @riddim, @happybeing, @Dimitar, @tfa, @neo, @DavidMc0, @intrz, @Nigel, @JimCollinson, @draw, @mav, @anon28980808, @Michael_Hills, @dirvine

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Looking forward to more feedback from outside the very tightly wound community. While trolls are everywhere and inevitable, there are many (as @DGeddes so eloquently notes) perspectives necessary to make this project a success.

@DGeddes is there a timeline for this new website and is there official community input?

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So true. Forums are for everyone to say their piece even those who are sceptical about safe network becoming reality. Sometimes criticism points out our failures. And failure is the greatest teacher. We shall learn from it.

The fact that so much attention is given to someone’s criticisms is a good indication that this project is for real, and it will get made .

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is there a timeline for this new website and is there official community input?

I’ve not got any firm timescale at the moment but I’ll not be shy about letting you all know when I do… and we’re trying to take all community feedback onboard.

David.

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