Feedback from outside the "SAFE space"

Please tell, who on the maid safe staff (team) have done this? I know (extremely) occasionally a short answer maybe be given, but treating someone like shit is very rare if ever. Now as to members of the forum, well that is different.

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Taking a stand like:

… is worth criticising. Every single technology that has not yet been completed, developed or invented will require a lot of work to finish. Some will take many years and decades, but that doesn’t make them a waste of time.

However, the point of it being tricky to get a grip on the network is valid & others have said the same.

The primer doc does a great job if it’s easy to find, and the new dev hub (hub.safedev.org) will make getting into developing much easier.

So valid questions are good, but coming in with so much edge & saying people should give up on the project is going to get peoples backs up.

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To me it’s just trolling so I tend to ignore it. If somebody who didn’t know me came up to me in the street and started criticising me they would get a reaction, but I wouldn’t hang about. I’d probably just let them know it wasn’t welcome and say goodbye

There are always people like this, and others waiting on the sidelines for a chance to show their own irritation will often jump in.

From my observation the people who have left are those with strong opinions who have liked something here and wanted to be a part of this, but also didn’t like something - wanted things to be different - and in the end could not handle the dissonance. They keep bringing the issue up again and again over time, and eventually they either lose it and get banned, or they complain one last time and go.

This doesn’t mean that the team or the community are wrong when the issue has been aired many times and often discussed at great length beforehand. IMO it’s just that some people want things to be different, and decide to leave because they feel very strongly and can’t handle that they have not been able to change other people’s minds.

I’m not saying that maidsafe and the community never get things wrong, of course we do. I’m saying that the fact some people come here, contribute a lot, and then leave doesn’t make them right, or the rest of us wrong. We are what we are, and some people don’t like that for one reason or another. One of the things we are is open, tolerant and willing to discuss a lot more than any forum I’ve ever been party of. And we have boundaries. In many forums the OP would have been deleted and hardly anyone would have seen it.

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Too right and as you know @happybeing we believe in letting people have their say as long as its not offensive, illegal or attacking others personally. Thus no action on the OP

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Here’s a perfect example: Safe Network - DevHub

I’ve tried to read that multiple times, but I cannot for the life of me understand what it’s trying to show me or how it makes any sense. I have no idea how to start actually developing for SAFE (not talking about static files but actual interactivity) after that “tutorial”. Call me “stupid” if you will, but I’ve coded some pretty advanced stuff in my days and used all kinds of really confusing APIs, but this is just… ? And maybe something is wrong on my end, but that “primer” link just goes to some minimal webpage with a bunch of general one-liners about what SAFE is?

okay - i’m pretty much a 0 web developer (and to be honest didn’t read the page but just looked at the code) but maybe you just think of it as being super complicated …? (or i’m misunderstanding the problem you seem to have …?)

the example doesn’t show you how to do general programming - if you want to create a shiny app you can find tutorials all over the web i would assume - but if you want to store/retrieve data on/from the network with your webapp you do it like this:

image

you tell the app its name, author, vendor , … , authorize it and create a handle/link to the network from your webapp
→ now you can start storing stuff on the network

by creating a data handle and storing the data you want in mutable-data-object :slight_smile:

… a little bit further down there is an examples on how to read the data

image

…or how to update MD-files …

it might help to start out by playing a bit with the safe api playground by @hunterlester which should enable you to understand how different things work and how to use the tools

but if you have suggestions for improvements I’m very positive feedback is very welcome and posting suggestions (e.g. in the dev forum ) would help the next developers to easier find their way into the network :slight_smile:
What is it you would like to see in addition to storing on safe/retrieving from safe …?

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I’m surprised how easy that code looks. A Unity script in C# to calculate 3d object orientaion useing Quaternions seems more complicated. Cheers

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There could definitely be tutorials describing design patterns for SAFE, ways you can structure you data in a SAFE application etc.

If this was the regular web, that tutorial would basically be something like “how to connect and get started with mysql”. That’s nice and described how to connect to the SQL database and do some simple queries, but it doesn’t describe how to structure your data, what kind of tables to create for your application and so on. Depending on what kind of apps a person may have written in the past, the basics could be enough if the person already knows how to structure the application and has written other apps in similar ways. Someone who has never written a web app before might instead be completely lost after just reading a basic tutorial on getting started with mysql.

With SAFE you have to write apps in a way that’s quite different from what most people are used to, so I can definitely see how many would be confused after just reading some basics on how to write and read data from the network. One of the big things that I’ve noticed newcomers are often confused about is that they often don’t realize that they’re not supposed to write server-side code. The app should just be a client side app where SAFE is used as a kind of database with some interesting properties that makes it possible to do many things on the client side that otherwise would require server-side code.

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I assumed that the example would be “How to make your own interactive SAFE guestbook” or something like that, or rather, that there would be several examples to do basic/common tasks.

I do know that there is no “server-side code”, BTW.

I have lots of experience with both JavaScript and coding things in general. I’m not confused by the actual syntax, but rather the amount of incomprehensible low-level-looking code that is apparently needed, which surprised me when I saw the “basic” example.

For SAFE to succeed, I’m afraid there needs to be a whole series of ultra-logical real-world examples which show you, richly commented, why SAFE makes it so blissful to code apps and not have to worry about all these things that are a nightmare at best and makes it impossible for many of us to do anything on the “clearnet”. I really feel that SAFE might be onto something huge, and this idea of not having any “infrastructure” to worry about is extreme appealing. This is why it’s so frustrating that there is zero coherent information (that I can find) which plainly lays out how SAFE is used in practical, non-fuzzy terms.

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Now we’re getting somewhere of use. I see what you mean and I take it you’re looking for some level of abstraction that makes dealing with low level stuff much easier. There is official work that needs to be done here but in due time. The Maidsafe devs are busy building a network to launch so our apps have a home eventually. So not that I entirely disagree with your most recent post but I think such stark criticisms from @BIGbtc and yourself earlier in the thread are less helpful than what was probably intended, so we’ll give you both guys the benefit of the doubt and move on :wink:

These are just somewhere to start and I hope this helps. Also be sure to visit the dev forum which has a lot of great answers to many beginner questions. Perhaps starting here good luck and don’t get too discouraged too quickly, this is a great project and the community here really is second to none!

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It might also be worth getting in touch with @DGeddes with some specifics on what you would find helpful.

He’s the first line of support on these things, and he’s pulling together tutorial content for the SAFE Academy, so I’m sure he’d be all ears!

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@EvilMaid - feel free to compile a list of questions and fire them at me…

We know that the guides need a little tweaking here and there - we’re currently working on that - but we thought it was better to have something, even if it wasn’t perfect, out for people to start getting to grips with.

David

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@BIGbtc - Can you please PM me. If you feel that I or anyone here at MaidSafe has used insensitive terminology in our communications with you then I’d like to know about it and I’ll certainly deal with it.

David.

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I understand that you find the requirements of the forum account to test an unecessary burden.
It is already explained in this topic why this is at the moment or that there are alternatives (mock routing).
I just want to mention that you’ve only have to read an extra 26 minutes to be able to test Alpha 2.
That doesn’t take like forever, in my opinion. So try to stay joyful, you’ll get there :wink:

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This is the topic “Feedback from outside the “SAFE space”.”

With an apparent genuine effort by @EvilMaid to make a point about how convoluted every intro of SAFEnet is.

His/her post is met with:

“hm? if you’re a dev then i assume you understand that SAFE connections can be embedded in every app you want - even without the user knowing you are using safe technology”

And from a mod whom I respect and consider part of the @maidsafe team who blows the OP off, “Interesting first post. As a newcomer why not just ask instead of assuming things and throwing around accusations? Honestly you’d save yourself a lot of bother and everyone else a feeling of mild irritation.”

And from a prominent and respected community member “To me it’s just trolling so I tend to ignore it.”

Another Mod focuses on how lucky the OP is his post is allowed to stay up. “Too right and as you know @happybeing we believe in letting people have their say as long as its not offensive, illegal or attacking others personally. Thus no action on the OP”

While there are people here genuinely interested in helping. Like the very first response from David and @DavidMc0 @Dimitar and some others, I see little to no effort to acknowledge or discuss all the OP issues, only those that would be considered an insult to Maidsafe. Avoiding reality.

Oh sure the OP got nasty, but come on, Maidsafe can take a few jabs, no?

The post is titled “Feedback from outside the “SAFE space”", not to be confused with “send me links to other places where I can get more confused”. While the OP did go overboard many here go apeshit when somebody challenges this project, questions the delays, questions why there has not been a certain level of progress, get indignant when asked why no roadmap exists. And on a personal note, Im quite disappointed that there is no new website that is blowing the minds of anyone asking the question; WHAT IS MAIDSAFE? I know shit happens, but gimme a break, 16 years into this project which is going to change the internet as we know it - 4 years since big promises were made during a financing - and there is still no efficient way to feed the voracious appetites of all those that could be app builders, Maidsafe developers, interest from c-suite techs, or just average blows who interested in new business paradigms.

Step back and take a look at all of this for a minute. How many people are NOT participating in this project but could be? How many opportunities has Maidsafe missed because this community is thin skinned?

I witnessed here in this forum more patience by community members giving a full pass to the biggest scammer promising some pie-in-the-sky BS decentralized exchange than for people bring real concerns to light.

This "Feedback from outside the “SAFE space” is real feedback. Use it to your advantage.

Good luck to all on the @maidsafe team.

Note: I apoligize to the @maidsafe team for making the broad claim of treating the OP like a bag of shit. I appreciate the effort by @DGeddes reaching out.

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Here’s the direct link to the primer:

https://maidsafe.net/docs/Safe%20Network%20Primer.pdf

It won’t help you develop an app, but will help get a fuller picture of what the Safe network is.

That was not a Maidsafe team member.

That was not a Maidsafe team member.

That was not a Maidsafe team member.

If you are going to accuse the Maidsafe Staff then at least accuse them of something they have done and not what others have done.

You are correct that some replies have not been the best but to accuse the Maidsafe team of those things is dishonest and just point scoring (mis)using this person’s topic to do so. Not good form. As @DGeddes says this is a serious situation and the Maidsafe team have taken notice and are currently addressing those issues which will take time to fix. But you come in and try to put them down using dishonesty. The Maidsafe Team have done the opposite to what you say and are actively trying to help. Of the 2 maidsafe team that responded they both were trying to be helpful and were respectful, the opposite of your claims.

EDIT:

This tops the it all

NONE of the Maidsafe team critised anyone or were in anyway not respectful and helpful to Mr Evil. And to make it worse the only other @Maidsafe team member to respond was David so your comment makes this even worse that you are now accusing him of being nasty to the OP and yet reading his post, he was first to respond and reached out to the OP to help.

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Yes you are correct in pointing out that I apologized. I had been referencing the mods here and in particular @JPL comments whom I said I considered part of the Maidsafe team. Note where I pointed out a positive where David offered assistance. But of course this is the real issue here. I’m the villian @neo. I’m happy to take your heat if it means something can come from this discussion. As far as me being dishonest, I think you are misguided.

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Same

Nope, the @maidsafe is VERY specific and refers ONLY to the Maidsafe company staff.

The Mods are not staff and we are just community members. and herein is the dishonesty. The @maidsafe were respectful and helpful, and ONLY one or more of the community and/or mods were not quite so. So to claim ANY of the @maidsafe were not respectful & helpful is dishonest. NONE of them were critical of Mr. Evil. And to include community members and/or mods as @maidsafe is misrepresentation of the truth

Too funny. Mr. Evil … many can see much more from your post than you think. Maidsafe has my apology for the broad sweep. That’s all that’s important to me.