Feasibility of datacenter farming (and the risk of farmer centralization)

@janitor,

That all makes sense - thanks for that. As well as lots of old hardware that I have that could be used (I do a lot of BOINC stuff already) I will be buying new hardware too - but like you say, I can see how it goes early and add new (or old) stuff as appropriate. I guess what I had in the back of my mind was that if did actually become worthwhile to buy a rack of stuff (as opposed to desktop stuff) then it would be good to know that earlier rather than later but it doesn’t make too much difference really . .

P.

The ideal from a global perspective will I believe be if the entire network ran at least cost, maximum efficiency, which would mean entirely on existing spare capacity. We might expect that this is what MaidSafe are aiming for, though no one can predict how close to the ideal it will be.

This means that in an ideal situation, dedicated farmers will be squeezed, and will need to be very efficient to compete with casual farmers who have little or no marginal costs.

Obviously there may be speculative profits from Safecoin price rises and volatility, but if we ignore those, I suggest that investing in hardware to farm is a high risk venture.

Being a part of SAFE and helping it succeed, or earning by adding value to the platform through contributing to the code, apps, or content are probably sounder options IMO.

Get working on those apps, or forming teams! :slight_smile:

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Glad to hear that an experienced forum member feels that way. @niklas, are you reading this? :wink:

I think I’ll stick with my plan to start small scale, casual home farming until it becomes clear whether our expectations (in terms of the algo’s “personality”) have been met, then decide the next steps.

The beta period will be fun (even testnet3 could be) as farmers start figuring out the algo…

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Yes, and I would beg to differ. A 24/7 farmer increases overall network speed and data availability. They can also quickly add lots of capacity. I’d say the best outcome is a healthy mix :stuck_out_tongue:

I suspect the bulk of the people who will jump on big time Safecoin farming, Bitcoin miners, won’t be too concerned about that. They’ve shown a tendency to take risks.

I have plans for that already, just waiting on a proper API :slight_smile:

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I expect they won’t be ignored. The early farmers are the early farmers because they see great potential in MaidSafe and most likely expect SafeCoin value to increase significantly in the future.

Personally, I’m going to start farming with just my current systems. If I like the results I can easily expand in a very short time frame.

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smoothing the transition from subletting artificial scarcity bandwidth to mesh

Think of an entity with nearly unlimited computational resources like the NSA-- if the main network gets attacked and corrupted at any time by data centers with billions of VMs pretending to be individual nodes with average network specs-- remaining online for a year or two, gaining reputation, then shutting them off, could a large amount of the data be disappeared? I think that adding in a channel feature in the MaidSafe network might be a good idea, but it will start fresh – say a 32-byte identifier with the default being all 0s for the original MaidSafe network-- and ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ01245 could be a different MaidSafe network with it’s own currency, etc-- allowing people to f’ork’ their own by setting identifiers if the main one gets corrupted.

wouldn’t there be huge safecoin incentives to keep the data up and running though?

it would be shooting yourself in the foot in a huge way to shut off your own money making nodes like that

Some people-- the people in many places of high authority and power are not concerned with money. They have more than enough, and consider any means of free publication a threat to their nesting of power. And it’s easier to collect the coins, then dump them for cash and then attack the network.

You’re right, it’d be a completely pointless attack.
Millions of compute hours would have to be invested.
Absolutely nothing of value would be gained in return.

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The idea that a government doesn’t like something, and their response is to subsidize it massively for 2 or 3 years so that they have the opportunity to sabotage at a later date it seems pretty far fetched to me.

Particularly since the subsidy makes it cheaper to use - and would result in wider adoption and their share diminishing, and their likelyhood of damaging the network diminishing as well… They would need to throw exponentially more and more resources…

If you water the weeds you will get more weeds…

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Ever heard of Stellar Wind? Supposedly it can record all of the Internet traffic across all the in/out points in the US for over a year and only costs ‘billions of dollars’ They do it already. What makes you sure that they don’t throw black ops budgets at anything that they consider to be a threat, like freedom of speech? They do it already.

From:

The US Government spends $435,841,200 (~$435 million) per hour (both portions)

          - Of the total money shown above, the US Government 

borrows $187,785,388 (187 million) each hour-- shown on the right
portion.
No problem filling up a UPS/Fedex truck each hour, full of
cash. The mail-man will never be out of a job processing all those
payments…

US Budget in 1 Day: $10,460,188,800

        For the year 2011:
        

          - The US Government spends $10,460,188,800 (~$10 billion, 460 million) per day (both portions)

          - Of the total money shown above, the US Government borrows $4,506,849,315 
          (4 billion, 506 million) each day.

US Budget in 1 Week: $73,221,917,808

        For the year 2011:

          

          - The US Government spends $73,221,917,808 (~$73 billion, 221 million) per week (both portions)

          - Of the total money shown above, the US Government 

borrows $31,547,945,205 (31 billion, 547 million) each week-- shown on
the right portion.

US Budget in 2011: $3,818,000,000,000

        For the year 2011:

          

          - The US Government's projected budget for year 2011 is $3,818,000,000,000.

          - Of the total money shown above, the pile to the right in the amount of $1,645,000,000,000 
          is borrowed money. 

          No one in the world has as big of a salary as US 

Government, but it still borrows roughly 40% of the money it spends.

          Source: CBO, GAO & USGovernmentSpending.com

          You can say Booyakashaa when this is your weekly allowance. 

Get the picture?

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Yes, I do get the picture. I’ve read about the spying stuff and I follow economic news on a daily basis.

  • The current system is unsustainable
  • Every single dollar that’s spent goes to someone who “needs” it (maybe they need to recoup their investment in their favorite Congressman, or maybe they need to get paid for voting the way they did).

So the huge figures don’t tell us there’s an unlimited number of dollars waiting to be spent on the pursuit of pointless goals. There has to be a purpose, or marginal utility aka bang for the buck, that is higher than they derive from whatever crap they’re pulling now.

Destroying random MaidSafe data by way of a Sybil attack would be a silly and expensive approach to achieve nothing.

I won’t even attempt to analyze why it wouldn’t pay to subvert MaidSafe that way (clearly, a much, much better ROI could be obtained by spending 1/100th of the amount needed for a Sybil attack on inventing a MaidSafe-targeting malware that would enable stealth access to data, rather than stupidly destroy potentially lucrative source of info, but there are other reasons too).

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The government has a history of accomplishing nothing with massive quantities of money. A lot of their tech is not publicly visible – likely in underground bases-- they have plenty of free hard drive space and lots of time on their hands. Unsustainability never prevented them from doing extremely stupid things with their $$. I can find countless examples of blank check spending.

I agree that these kinds of attacks are more likely.

Yes, – If they have that kind of resources they can just sniff all the packets at the ISP sent at a PC level… While they still may be encrypted - you will at least get all 3 chunks.

Surveillance ought to be done in such a manner anyway - a concerted effort against a known target. With a warrant…

Destroying data through a Sybil attack would be pretty silly all in all because you wouldn’t know what data it was that you where destroying, and it very well be data that you would like to have… It would be akin to shutting down the internet… Or blowing up bridges to prevent police chases…

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Don’t give ideas

I moved a post to an existing topic: Equation Group

If maidsafe is safely put on top of CJDNS, it would be nearly impossible for anybody to sniff the packet data. CJDNS is a bidirectional router. All it does is to transfer encrypted packet to the router of choice. It doesn’t know the packet data. It only knows the router number on the encrypted packet. The only person would know the data is the person that you are connected to. Basically, you are your own ISP. And all you need is to connect to another personal peer ISP. And that peer is connected to different peer ISP. you could talk to that different peer without knowing his IP.

So in this case, the chosen peer you’re connected to, knows you transfered three chucks of data to that unknown IP peer. The rest of the network does not know this. Again, cjdns is a router, the job is transfer one way or another, based routing number on the encrypted packet.

Safe + CJDNS would be anti-surveillance tool. Completely robust system.

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It should also be said that while the thugs in blue likely prefers TOR for the usual brown people that they love to kill, as it’s just strong enough to not be deanonymousable to countries without a trillion dollars to build an NSA of their own, but perfectly crackable to the thugs in blue themselves, the thugs in blue are going to need something with Maidsafe cryptographic strength or even stronger to play their covert mafia games with the Russian thugs and the Chinese Thugs, who do have the means to build their own NSAs.