Farming Rewards, free space for new users, and processing power rewards

Sorry, didn’t realise it was already decided to give free storage. What’s everyone discussing it for though on different threads btw?

I’m not sure that it is…
I’m just saying that instead of focusing on preventing bad actors 100% of the time, the question should be focused on how to reward those for being good.

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Here is some safecoin, I want you to be safe and private!
Here is some safecoin, I want your children to know freedom
Here is some safecoin, I want you to help spread the word
Here is some safecoin, Get yourself on and earn more of these things
safecoin fawcet, spewing out freedom tokens for captcha solving ?

No a bad idea perhaps.

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From the ‘out there’ category, that would take some time to implement. gamification Done the ANT way it might provide a stimulating method of earning resources.

Maybe it could even contribute to solving problems piece by piece if you gave users menu options for ‘what are you good at?’ and then they solved a puzzle.

This video gives an overview of the subject and I think I spotted an idea for coin in a private implementation of SAFE :slight_smile:

I think this idea would work if we wanted to keep the amount of initial free storage low and make it easy for those with safecoin wealth to feel good about giving to others who need it.

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There’s a difference between forced and voluntary welfare. Not sure the point of this video.

Automatic welfare, lol like getting Automatic storage space to a limit;

Otherwise, giving away safecoin is like coercing and ‘stealing’ someone’s awareness with a mask of generosity. The network is what it is, it’s great;

I don’t think I understand.

The SAFE Network will allocate to any user a certain amount of network space. Therefore, any interested person can get a vault, acquire safecoins, and also deploy anything they like on their automatically allocated space.

So essentially being in the SAFE Network, Automatically empowers your presence digitally.
Since there is a choice to enter the network, that is voluntary; though the ability to traverse the network and to host oneself in the network is an automatic feature which no user has to assess any decision for such privilege.

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The keyword being “identical”. Hopefully you can tell that some SAF3 fork isn’t a hacker or NSA backed enterprise and that they have enough funds and knowledge to maintain the network.

We’ve seen several (hundred) interesting forks that are almost identical to bitcoin and some grew to a respectable size, but none have threatened it yet. In my own opinion it will be most interesting to see whether Ethereum will be forked because it’s more comparable to MaidSafe than bitcoin and its kind.

You know it’s mathematically impossible to provide a free service over an extended period of time. If the farmers and users settle among themselves, that over the long term leaves the Project unable to finance itself.

You’re right, of course. That’s why I’ve been fairly aggressive on these economics and space-giveaway topics, because I’m concerned that there’s already a lot of unknowns and that tinkering with the system will make it worse before it makes it better.

I believe (based on my own guesstimates) that it can, as long as there’s no tinkering and people can make reasonable expectations about market dynamics. If the economics of SAFE network is tinkered with, the price will be unstable, conservative “investors” and farmers deterred and then the supply and demand may balance harder.
Think about it - assuming the price of Safecoins (whatever it is) gyrates like some altcoin (20% price swings per week), would you spend $500 on a new “farm” purely on economic grounds? If you’re doing this as an investor, maybe you’d just buy the coin and wait till it goes up - it’s so much easier.
(I’ll have a small farm because I like this stuff, but that doesn’t count.)

testnet3 or (I think more likely) beta will be the 80/20 moment where a lot will be learned, but I think scammers and users with interesting strategies won’t deploy in earnest until GA.

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There is already massive infrastructure that is running the internet. Telecom companies, cloud storage companies will easily and even expressed their interest in allocating their unused space for setting up vaults on the SAFE Network. We are not really talking BitCoin, and doing computation just for the sake of existence… This network’s success infrastructure already exists; and therefore, simply requires the protocol.

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Are you sure bitcoin computation is done just the sake of existence?

To paraphrase Andy, the nice thing about protocols is that you have so many to choose from. If it was simple one would be enough (like many were saying after bitcoin there was no need to create other crypto-coins).

But I hope you’re at least partially right because I own some Maidsafecoins while I don’t own products or coins for competing protocols.

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I don’t either…I’ve lost the plot…lol. I was only asking if it is already decided to give free space away, if so how much and if not, then we can just list the pro’s and cons and decide. I still don’t know where we are up to and Janitor’s ideas seemed to have some merit.

Expect the network to grow based on simple generosity seems naive. This way we have the problem of maintaining the network in a small circle which leads inexorably to failure.
And waste the time with problems or captcha does not seem a good idea because many people do not have time or inclination to make them.
If we keep the free storage low without an free and easy solution (like the voucher o similar) I think it’s best to turn on POR right from the start.

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I keep coming back to that too, problem is that investors were told Safecoin would be intrinsic to the network. What would the potential knock on effects of that be? the free aspect seems to tax farmers and the POR the investors - taxing either of these is surely going to have side effects for the sustainability of the network too. Won’t farmers be de incentivised or investors see Safecoin as having less value? Seems like a catch 22 whatever really. The best idea to me seemed to be to just offer basic functionality and not free storage.

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Thanks for raising that point, few days back I wondered about that but it left my mind.
I was thinking how it may be a good idea to go back to pre-crowdfunding docs and see if there’s anything about freebies.

I don’t have time to read everything now, but I did search for free and didn’t see any references about freebies in the two docs below. More googling should be done to find the first instances when freebies were mentioned (before or after the crowdsale?), but in any case, giveaways should be done responsibly otherwise investors may take action. (I myself own Maidsafecoins, but not enough to be bothered about the details, I’d just prefer that giveaways aren’t outrageous).

REFERENCES

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For those interested… to my knowledge, the very first (discussion) about free storage was from this post on the dev list on March 25. It may help to review this thread.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/maidsafe-development/brainstorming/maidsafe-development/HfdZ3WPQoAg/h0Nbw6WABFsJ

Keep in mind it was just a discussion at the time. I am not aware of any official documentation/claim about free storage of any amount before or after the crowd sale. We are still in discussion about how to implement it, if possible.

As previously stated, I would like to observe TestNet3. Maybe, just maybe, de-duplication will have a significant impact, proving @dirvine was right. My concern about storage over capacity may be moot.

I was dismayed we are not sharing the benefit of de-duplication with the users. Now that I think about it, some free storage might be an indirect way to share that benefit.

Just food for thought.

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Ok, I’ve been back to the threads and from what I can gather, there are 3 main reasons that Maidsafe want the free model, according to D Irvine, who I have quoted below.

“So mobile apps etc. would not have to worry about linking vaults or safecoin purchases of resources”

Is this not technologically solvable in another way? I thought people could run a vault on their computers and access what they want from their mobile - are you talking about people who only have mobile phones and no computers? This would bring us back to third world countries as the main concern then. TBH I know basic mobile phones are quite ubiquitous but I think it is just as unlikely a poor person has a smartphone as a computer.

“in terms of the network not requiring to manage users stored/deleted space etc. Reduces network traffic management and allows much faster churn (one of our continuous goals).”

So the advantage is that things would work faster if storage is free? I’m not too technical so don’t really understand the ramifications. I would ask things like - how much faster, how much improvement and how important is this compared to the cons?

“This also allows people in less developed countries who cannot afford the resources to mine or purchase safecoin the ability to connect, consume, create and add to the vast pool of human knowledge at no cost. To me this changes everything”

We are back to the same third world usability issue – this seems to be the main reason for wanting free storage……if we can sort this problem in an innovative way, then I think we can largely forget the universal free storage model, which has a large number of cons as far as I can see. The other benefits of free storage such as expected wider user adoption are not to my mind massively persuasive.
I also understand the thinking behind
“Crux of the MaidSafe system so far, make thieves valuable until they are not, then remove them. - DIrvine. – just not sure about it.
Just a thought but if free space was only given for educational purposes, this may help. For example small villages may have a small school with a computer people can access - don’t know how feasible that is to police though.

I’ve traveled to many countries, and what I have observed is that most people actually do have smartphones. These smartphones are more prized than clothing, and quite frankly having acquired even an iPhone 4 in great condition not many weeks ago for a lousy 20 dollars. It is obviously clear that should you travel to places and see this for yourself that smartphones are far and wide, and used by even the least financially powerful people. I am talking about even those who earn just 300 dollars a month let us say, a person who earns this much, does not mind saving aside 20 dollars or 18.50 dollars to eventually acquire a smartphone, and assuredly this happens regularly.

Buenas Tardes

If there is something so worth it, a person will acquire what is necessary to participate.