Farming is dead - long live the node-hosting volunteers

We don’t have VAT but is it not a tax paid by the consumer at the very end of the product cycle at the cash register.

If so does VAT not effect the person purchasing storage instead of the “farmer”?

Edit: Thinking on it a bit more I assume the problem is that the “farmer” is then one responsible for charging the consumer for that VAT? But the farmer is not the one making the sale, the network is.

Just rambling trying to understand, sorry.

3 Likes

true -ish - for the UK at least - and the rest of the EU is similar.
Unfortunately everybody in the chain of providing goods or services to the end user has to account for the Value Added. So basically instead of getting on with producing shit or providing services, we all have to become sodding accountants and waste time doing VAT returns and becoming unpaid tax collectors.
If I charge £400/day for consultancy, I need to charge the end customer an extra £80 (20%) and then fill in a VAT return every three months and hand over 20% of my turnover - less the VAT I am allowed to claim back on travel, accommodation, office costs etc.

2 Likes

I’m curious, how do the Swiss or anyone else plan to tax anything if they can’t monitor transactions?

It’s not one of the suggestions but I really like ‘Node Operator’.

That breaks the link with the idea that a node is just providing storage for data because we’re not going to be storing the data - just providing a facility by which the data can be reconstructed and read due to the use of Erasure Coding. Also, the nodes will be validating the health and integrity of the network as well as providing the platform for data storage and anything with ‘data’ or ‘hosting’ in it doesn’t seem to cover that.

The use of ‘Operator’ also has connotations with computer history: an ‘Operator’ being the lowest privileged user of the computer and fits with what their status will be on this network. The people who start nodes and keep them running will have no individual ability to make any changes to the network apart from to decide whether to participate.

4 Likes

So do I. The suggestions were just me taking the piss, apart from the last one, NOTA

Yep , totally agree.

Our GST is Goods and services. So being a supplier invokes GST. As a farmer of food doesn’t (deliberate loophole).

As a worker for a company does not attract GST on your work that you receive “employee” income. A self employed person who invoices others does have to collect GST,

So I would think that it needs to be framed as labour supplied to the network (foundation?) as the company.

AFAIK rewards for helping out doesn’t have GST as its closest is employee. No invoicing involved and any taxing is income tax which would be there for any recurring payments (ie not a once off gift/prize).

1 Like

it should be abreviated as NoOping :smiley:

2 Likes

NoOp - (pronounced /nupe/). There, you now have your new vernacular for a Node Operator. :sunglasses:

3 Likes

nope - jist naw :smile:

2 Likes

Gonnay no dae that

5 Likes

Inspired by beer… safekeeping :beer:

7 Likes

I’ll drink to that :slight_smile:

The noble art of safekeeping will some day be as respected as that of beekeeping :honeybee::honeybee::honeybee:

7 Likes

Operators


edit: img source - Uber Co-Founder's Startup 'Operator' Will Get You What You Want • TechCrunch

4 Likes

Every transaction needs a VAT field, or in the CDN sense here, a Harmonized Sales Tax field, so that every transaction can track the govt consumptive tax, the wallet keeps track of the ‘sale’ of resources, which needs to accumulate that series of transaction field instances in a log and as a summary amount as well per a set of govt tax submission period stop and start dates, to also keep track and report/submit the tax liability per the date, and allow for other deductible items like the resource operator’s directly applicable node operating costs, so power cost and cost of staffing the resource services over that period , as well as application of allowed overhead deductions (physical space used to host the resources). My advice? The SafeNetwork dev/test team getting ahead of this with some tax accountant advice to craft the transaction fields and wallet behaviours correctly, bodes well for the project, ignoring the tax implications or doing a half baked job of them will have down stream negative consequences and lessen the appeal of the project.

n.b.- Most govts are all over this now by and large, trying to figure out how to tax distributed public and private ledger transactions (ie slap regs on these ‘things’ to extract tax monies so as to pay for their largess), the above is a bit of guidance on my part, ie- having the deductions part built in to the whole system of renting out resource is a real convenience differentiation imo, so I hope the above info helps.

Using a resource manifest yaml file per resource offered is probably the way to go, the yaml file is unique per each resource rented. the unique yaml also accomodates geo location of resource and related govt tax differences in VAT , as well as having the yaml file controlling the setup/CRUD/M/A/C/tear down/retirement of the resource virtually and even spatially over the resource’s useful lifetime.

‘Resource Operator’ gets my vote…

3 Likes

I dont understand it why is farming dead? Because tax? Some country have “normal” tax or even untaxed, why is this problem? You can tax it and farm no?

I think this is all about language. Farmers sell a product … operators perform a service. I only skimmed this topic though, so just a guess.

1 Like

Operators can also be contractors. So operator may be able to work in many more places.

In Australia if the Tax Dept declared node earnings a selling “something” or supplying “services” then the node operator would pay the GST portion (1/11 of total) as if it was charged and then be paying income tax on the rest.

That would then mean the node operator can claim expenses such as electricity, cost of compute equipment, ISP (proportioned) charges, rent charges for the room. Included in that would be a rebate on the GST component on any of those expenses.

Thus the GST the node operator gives the tax dept is 1/11th of receipts less GST paid on expenses.
The income tax would be on 10/11ths of receipts minus expenses <== income

BUT the kicker is that any non business (business in that occupation) person doing a business like activity which could be considered as doing a hobby up to 10K gross income (used to be 5K) can deem the activity as a hobby and be exempt from declaring it. The reason being that often the expenses allowed, if considered actual business, would exceed the income.

Now another thing in AU tax is that if your business is dealing with less than (used to be 50K) then GST is not needed to be collected nor accounted for. Thus in most Australian cases income from node payments will not be considered business activities requiring GST collection. BUT will still be considered income if it does not appear to be a hobby. But if hobby then only when income rises above 10K would it be taxable by doing your no longer a hobby

5 Likes