This is the post that started the discussions
There was also a referrendum for in/out and a general election which reaffirmed the decision to leave. Both received way more than 4m votes and there was ample opportunity to voice an opinion. Forgive me for feeling like the latest protests have a whiff of sour grapes.
Sorry Traktion, I haven’t followed this thread in a while. Am I right guessing you talk about Brexit and yesterday’s demonstrations?
For an outsider, it’s a somewhat (sadistically) interesting issue. I gotta say I had bet on Brexit prior to the referendum just as I had bet on Trump winning the election. And as you would probably guess, I’m not very pro-Trump at all. I just believed the anti-campaigns would turn against the manipulators who I believe have been underestimating the so-called common people for a while now.
If I was to bet on whether or not the results will get revoked and/or whether another referendum will take place, I would be pretty helpless. I also have trouble finding someone who can see the fuller picture on the Brexit issue. What is the general mood truly like? Our newspapers claim there were hundreds of thousands at the protests yesterday.
Does that sound likely? Or is it just more of… you know.
The march was huge - more than a million people is the latest estimate, which sounds about right if you see the ariel footage. The anti-Iraq war protest in 2003 was 1 million people and this looks a similar size. As for the mood in the UK, its a mixture of boredom, outrage and disbelief. Also it’s like Groundhog Day, the same issues come back and get voted down, then come back again and get voted down again. The country is split in so many different ways with noone willing to give ground and so the outcome is completely unpredictable, and there are manipulators on all sides.
There was no vote on the Iraq war beforehand, which meant people had no outlet for their hostility to the war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests
In the referrendum, pretty much the whole establishment (politicians, banks, economists, business leaders) were all saying leaving was a bad idea and that we should remain. However, people voted to leave regardless and there was a high turn out too, IIRC. The result was close though, at 48/52.
Most MPs are still remainers, which goes some way to explaining the lacklustre approach to negotiations. It feels like many hoped they could pressure the government into reversing the decision, despite both major parties also standing on a pro brexit ticket.
There are splits in opinions across parties and across the house. There are also split across the populous, with diametrically opposed positions. It is a tough one to solve and I suspect that is why article 50 was committed to law 2 years ago, as it was inevitable some would get cold feet and/or try to overturn the process.
I can’t understand this whole Brexit thing. A major breaking change was voted in with simple majority. There’s more sanity than that even in crypto: if somebody wanted to go about a hard fork like that, everybody would just laugh. With such a narrow win, of course even the smallest bump on the road would cause a big enough shift that… who’s the majority now? Nobody knows. Such a pathetic shitfest.
By the way, why not another referendum? People can change their minds, especially if they can’t see any hope that the leaving would go down professionally and without major losses that they had not been informed about before. Democracy means nothing is set in stone if the people don’t want it set in stone.
In my understanding the referendum of 2016 is legally non-binding and it seems article 50 could be legally revoked. Whatever the choice, there will probably be sour grapes (with or without heavy taxes).
In the UK, referrendum are rare and usually not repeated for a generation. The last vote on Europe was in 1975, which was simply to stay in the EC trade block (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum). The EC back then have few ambitions in comparison to the EU’s ever closer union of countries and was more of a free trade agreement.
I think that had there been a protest vote to the lib dems (3rd biggest UK party and pro-remain), then maybe it would have been harder for the government to feel they had a mandate to progress with leave preparations. However, there was only a swing from UKIP back to the Conservatives (whence mostly they came).
I suspect this sort of thing cannot be toggled on or off easily. Years of negotiations and preparations have taken place (both in UK and EU) and to simply put up another vote which could revert it, especially this close to crunch day (where panic/apprehension can set in), could be seen as indecisive and wasteful.
There is also a fear over what a precedent of ignoring or overriding a previous referrendum provides. Do we start doing a best of 3 or 5? How long between them? Is asking are you sure, when a hand is over the red button the best time to make a reasoned decision, etc?
But of course! The EU made sure everybody understands they wouldn’t push for this thing to go through and they are willing to forget everything. What they aren’t willing to is giving in to unreasonable demands, but then this simple idea gets presented as “oh but the EU is so unreasonable” to the British people. Mind blown…
And then of course that BS about “we honor the decision of the people” when in fact it’s always been a petty war between rich mofos in high places, using (and manipulating) the people just because, or else it would’ve been handled with honor and dignity. I wanna throw up.
Disclaimer: I have family in London, the youngest of whom is a British citizen even, and I tend to hate them being screwed over.
True, but what is legal and what is acceptable though are two different things. Those who voted leave would feel thoroughly betrayed if it was revoked (especially at this late stage) and big questions about how parliamentary democracy is performed would be asked.
Well, that’s not all that sure at this point anymore. It was a stupid
hard fork referendum with simple majority and it ended up a real narrow win even against all the heaps of promises that are now clear would not be kept. That’s plenty of reason to think the ratio between stay and leave might’ve changed significantly.
That is true, but is Brexit more acceptable (with the current knowledge of it)? A difficult decision to make…
My opinion is that we have made our bed and now we need to lie in it. There will be pros and cons of leaving and there will certainly be a shock to the economy. However, longer term rebuilding will inevitably start and a new chapter can begin. Sometimes a shake up seeds new ideas and change.
Backing out at the 11th hour, after all of the pain over the last 3 years, with a nation still divided and democracy on the edge of an abyss… what positive result can come from this? I feel we just need to see where leaving takes us now and try to make the most of it (ofc, many will not share my opinion though!).
Exactly. The nation is already screwed with regards to politics, government, and so on. But going forward in the current state (no deal, nothing) will screw it over economically as well. It’s not something worth experimenting over “well, let see where it leads” style. Sometimes cutting losses and backing out is the best one can do.
What I majorly can’t understand is, what’s the big deal about asking the people again? I would understand the unwillingness if things were going swell but it’s an inglorious clusterfuck so pushing it with such vehemence without knowing people are still on board with the idea is anything but justified.
The goverments are much more less popular after few months after election. So if they allow another EU referrendum, they will show that it is worth to go to the streets and demonstrate…Unfortunetelly they do not want.
I thought that they will have rights like Switzerland and Norway or better, but EU do not want show, that it is worth to leave EU, so they push GB to no leave EU or with quite bad deal.
Oops. Didn’t mean too. I was originally commenting on the weakness of the current internet to operate under load/dos-ish use.
The big deal with this is that if the people vote for something the leaders dont won’t they will just faff about for 2/3 years and say we told you so listen to us we know what’s best for you. No thanks.
Yeah. The deal is that it renders referendum results irrelevant as long as the leaders (and the string-pullers) decide they will turn it into a lasting misery to fix everyone’s mind and then let them vote again, and again, and again until we get the desired result.
It’s also noteworthy that the stayers point to the current state as an argument against Brexit, when in reality, it’s just an argument against the people who should (not) make the Brexit happen.
If we really wanna act like democracy matters, then Brexit should happen and England should get to vote about joining the EU again. Silly as it sounds.