Discussion on reducing the trust level requirements of the Price & Trading topic


#87

There is no way to please everyone Jabba. So if we follow the exact ideas of you and several others to put “forum talk” on the frontpage, a bunch of other people will disagree. That way we always see an active small group of people not liking what we do.

We have 6800 members now and a ban list that is quite small. All these people got more than one second chance to stop doing what got them on the radar of moderation. From physical threats to scamming our community with several accounts claiming they had “lost their private key please send me some MAID”.

I know you and some others don’t like it. I know several members left this forum because of us moving things to #meta and being too strict.

I honestly wonder how we are too strict?? Far over 99% of all members never got on our radar for any misdoing. Far over 99% never had any of their posts flagged. And we have maybe a dozen people banned (apart from the real weight loss spam accounts) on 6800 members.

Price and Trading
There wasn’t a ban on that topic. But every time MAID made a move new members jumped on this forum to yell and scream and make a load of personal attacks on the devs. I guess 8 out of 10 flags were from that topic because even the common visitors here got sick of it. We restricted the topic to TL2 and we saw an 80% dump in flags. It was a great decision.

We have a topic in #staff now where we’re discussing this topic due to the discussion here in #meta.

EDIT: Just want to add that I also see discussion on Bitcointalk forum for several tokens. It’s quite a mess, not well moderated including physical threats to people. yelling and screaming with swears all over the place.


#88

I’m referring to the work involved in putting together a concrete proposal. In this case Savage didn’t have to do any work, his proposal was very simple. But the issue I’m referring to is how you make such a process formalised.

We don’t have a formal process - and this is a recurring problem. Sometimes somebody puts up a poll and it gets some votes, so those in favour want it to be acted upon. That’s all logical in theory, but no democracy works without having a formal structure to ensure those votes are informed and that everyone gets the opportunity to understand, question and ultimately vote. So the mods are in a difficult position, either act on every poll or face accusations when they judge the poll has not met some unspecified standard.

I don’t think that’s a big deal wrt Savage’s proposal in the OP - I’ve said, I didn’t even vote, so I really don’t care whether it happens or not. Jabba and I were discussing the wider issue of how this forum is managed and the way change can happen in ways that reflect what the community wants.

That’s where the hard work I’m referring to lies. In coming up with a concrete proposal for:

  1. how a change process can be managed (fairly easy as I suggested in my previous post), but still not yet formalised, and

  2. how the forum itself should be managed: moderator selection, moderator powers and accountability mechanisms etc. I think the reason nobody has created a concrete proposal for that is that it is hard work - but if you or anyone who wants to change how that is done I’ll be happy to be proven wrong. Get to it! Let’s resolve this and we can all get off this frustrating hamster wheel without feeling the need to leave.

It’s the fact that we don’t have such processes that leads to these discussions every so often, so I think it would be good to have them if they can be made workable. The reason I never came up with such a program (voting on mods for example) was that I couldn’t think of a way to make that workable. It sounds simple, but making it robust from attack is very hard IMO. And nobody has yet come up with a concrete proposal and asked for it to be put to the community - the opportunity is there and always had been.


#89

This doesn’t need to be a long drawn out discussion.

Yes, and a poll was made and thus far users wish to reduce the restrictions to TL1. Thus, what exactly is it that the moderators are discussing?

Yes, and they have 1,621,348 users. Which is what the point of the poll was. Are current restrictions preventing people from joining this community? But, it seems you don’t want that kind of growth because you have a fear of

off-topic sidenote: I am also wondering why if a community member wants to discuss the forum, it must be hidden away in #meta but if a mod wants to give an update it gets thrown on the front page under #community. Why the double-standard?


#90

Even putting together a very simple proposal has a hard time with mods as this thread shows.

The mods seem to want to know how everything is going to go.

Just take it day by day, allow users to create polls, follow through with those polls, adjust, suggest ideas, keep everything out in the open, be accessible. Its called learning and growing together, it creates strength within the community, people protect each other, circle of trusts are formed. We can’t have everything laid out at once. (this to me is obvious stuff and feel silly for pointing it out but it seems time and time again you guys just don’t get it)

@Team_2E16 gave some good proposals here

If the community votes on a particular subject, lets use this thread as an example, to reduce restrictions on entering trading topic, and shit goes haywire, another poll just gets made to revert it back, what is the problem? No one can accuse the mods, they just followed the people, if the unspecified standard wasn’t in the poll that is not the mods fault and nor can they be accused of it.

But either way, this has gone on for too long. Keep discussing whatever you are discussing behind closed doors mods. I have been through this type of conversation before with you Mark and it gets very circular.

I will now patiently wait for a statement from the Maidsafe marketing team as to how they plan on solving this problem of mods stifling community growth. Perhaps they don’t see the necessity right now which imo is a mistake.


#91

I realise what you are saying here, but my personal opinion is that is any part of maidsafe had influence here beyond respect and acceptance as a normal community member then we are in trouble as a community. MaidSafe should be seen for what they are, dedicated to getting Secure Access For All and the community run efforts must be left alone as much as possible. In today’s world we need to have an all out anything goes place and a moderated easy to read and get info without digging too much place.

I feel we can have both, so here where there is light moderation we have a place more like an echo chamber, granted, but we can get through a lot of info quickly. Then we have rediit/twitter and places like that for more open discussions, including trolls. So possibly it is good to have different channels that provide different approaches, so not all moderated and not all open. Then we stand a chance of pleasing more people.

The openness of this channel (discourse) should be quite rightly challenged and challenged often, that keeps it healthy. The mods job is pretty thankless and they really do take flak and often to go along with no reward and less free time that most. If we all realise the mods know they are between the rock and hard place then we will all get on better.

tl;dr Many channels offer many different approaches, lets use them all for our own comfort, wild west or eat coast regulations or anywhere in between. Difference is good, we should all love the fact the differences exist and we should not try and make everything the same in any way. As a small community we maybe don’t cover as much ground, but we are growing and I think strongly, we don’t seem to be caught in a hype cycle, but instead seem determined in our quest. That suits me, I always wish we were launched yesterday, but am never scared of the road in front either, I just know this is a road we have no choice but to travel. The world needs this and we need to be part of providing it, every last one of us.


Proposal for changes in moderation
#92

The discussion in this topic has been very helpful, even if there were some emotional posts.

Taking into account a number of aspects, like the poll results and the fact that gaining level 1 membership was increased (for access to invites for testnets) since the restrictions were placed on the P&T topic, the P&T topic will be changed to only requiring level 1 member status.

Also I proposed that a second P&T topic for other coins incl BTC be created on a trial basis. Other Coins - Price & Trading topic

The changes will be monitored and if the trolls and spamming starts up again then the decision will be reviewed.

The community has spoken and we’ve tried to provide a compromise between those who wish it to remain restricted to level 2 and those who wish for no restrictions. And considering many wanted level 1 restrictions, I personally feel that this should be satisfactory going forward.

NOTE: @frabrunelle will do the change in due course.


Proposal for changes in moderation
#93

Seems sensible to me, thanks @moderators for all the work you put in, and for keeping a steady hand when the topics get choppy.

And @jm5, I invite you to write your suggestion up as a topic that can be put to the community and a vote.


#94

This directly from Proboards.

“Before you open the doors to invite guests and prospective members to explore your new forum, the rules of engagement should be somewhat established. We say somewhat because they’ll probably change over time as others contribute to the management and growth of your community.”


#95

@dirvine I appreciate you replying and take everything into account you have said. I understand it may be a lot to ask of you to read through this. I feel you are missing this point

That is exactly part of the point. There is no difference on this forum, it is all swept under the rug.

A must read but to highlight my personal feelings

So it seems that us that see the absurdity are banished to

:wink:


#96

seemed to me @Team_2E16 did a pretty good job already so i just copied their proposals and put them here in #meta where nobody goes and if the mods approve they can move it to the front page.


#97

For some reason, every time my eyes read “Meta” my brain goes “meh”. Seriously.

P.S. This comment doesn’t extend to the name “metaquestions”. That context makes perfect sense to me and is, I think, an inspirational tagline.


#98

Nope, the opposite it seems…

getting consensus. That’s what we always do. the pros the cons etc.

I have no clue where this one comes from. I’ll hope we’ll grow to 20 or 30K members in the coming months. Just like we all want SAFE te get as much people excited as possible. I’ve spent quite an amount of hours working on a safe paper/primer over the last few months. Even while my health isn’t really supportive here. So to frame me and other mods as not wanting more growth because we’re scared we can’t handle it is quite absurd. And far away from the facts.

Updates bring new guidelines and informs people about certain things like new mods/leaving mods/new admins etc. That’s information concerning all.

We’ve had quite some discussions on the front-page about politics/this forum and even other projects. The consensus has always been to move forum talk away from the frontpage. It was a decision we took supported by a big majority of the community. Not a decision you agree with, but it was with full consent.

Like I said before; we could move forum talk to the frontpage and we’ll have another group of people asking us to un-do that again. It’s impossible to please all 6800 members here.


#99

I think this is a good, pragmatic solution that takes into account the view points of many. In a community of this size (really, once you have more than 1 person…), it’s impossible to please everyone. However, outcomes that produce the greatest degree of freedom for all are to be praised, in my opinion.

I am also amazed and humbled by the degree of passion members of this forum have about not just the Maidsafe project itself, but also the community as well. Onward and upward. :slight_smile:


#100

Hey everyone, just wanted to confirm that I just made this change :slightly_smiling_face:


Proposal for changes in moderation
#101

I’m not sure that’s a serious proposal, it was a very long piece and I don’t think many people will read and understand what he is proposing, if that is in fact the case. It was too long for me to read, and I expect most people in the forum have limited time.

So if it does contain a concrete proposal, I suggest somebody who wants it to happen bring it out as such, perhaps with a link to the full post, and start a community discussion on the changes proposed and a request to the mods for this to be kept visible.


#102

Many thanks @moderators the intention when I created the poll was never to cause conflict.
So I feel a little guilty for unintentionally stirring the pot.
Sad that we have lost valuable members in the heat of it, hoping it is temporary.
Apologies for turmoil and thanks for taking the results to heart and making the change.


#103

It was obviously something that needed addressing so thanks for bringing it up. Sometimes it takes a nudge to move things forward. 6,000 people are never going to agree on everything but hopefully the balance has been shifted in the right direction for most.


#104

@jabba raises some good points here, specifically:

I, for one would love to see him back here.

Community management, it’s a tricky business. :).


#105

We love you, Jabs!
(Freaking 20 characters)


#106

Feel free to criticize moderation. But first of all we don’t manage a community. SAFE folks are all over the place. Telegram, Reddit, Bitcointalk, The dev forum, this forum etc. I help out here as a mod/backup adming but also started a forum about EOS for example. I don’t have any control on Reddit, Telegram or the Bitcointalkforum topic about MaidSafe. So far for my “managing” work.

Second: You quote here about “key forum contributors” being driven away. Well… I would like to reply to that. When someone trolls the whatever out of moderation it most of the time doesn’t show up to the average user. Think about mods asking someone several times not to start “moderation talk” topics on the frontpage and a troll doing exactly that even 5 minutes after we’ve deleted the topic and asked him again over PM to stop trolling us. Or someone intentionally posting adult links even while we asked a user not to as we’re a family friendly forum. We no longer post details about why someone is banned/suspended but we did in the past and this is a post (Jan 2016) you might want to look at as it shows numerous cases of trolling etc. And we even let that person back to our platform after a 7 day ban. Imagine what someone has to do before we ban a month or permaban a user.

We always suspend/block someone for a week or 2 weeks after we see no other option. We might do it for a month if it’s a second ban etc. But when someone keeps going over the line there is a point where we permaban someone. Here’s the list. It doesn’t show all bans (like new users posting weight loss spam) as we don’t see them as “members”. So… out of 7300 members we’ve permabanned 7 in total. That’s not even 0.1% (not even 1 out of 1000) of all users. And as you can see most of them used so called “sock puppets”. We don’t really care if we see multiple accounts from the same IP (could be some family members or partner right…) but in these cases they really used these accounts to reply on their own topics or to troll moderation. Overall the “Suspended members list” is filled with severe trolls, people that made physical threats or tried to scam our community by claiming loss of a private key and asking for donations by posting a maid-address. I’m quite sure that most members here (like 9 out of 10) would agree with these bans if they knew all the details.

Now, there is a small group that left this forum as they don’t like the way it’s moderated. That’s not something I like. None of mods like it. But can you please answer the following question… Let’s assume we would we would try to please that group… And let’s say it’s a clear list of requests/proposals they want to see implemented like being more allowed to go off-topic in posts… Have moderation-talk (#meta) on the frontpage… Being less strict to trolling and implementing more community proposals…

What do we do if another group of clear voiced people start to criticize moderation about that?? What if they have a strong opinion about moderation getting back to how it was before these changes?? What if even some long time forum members decide to leave because “#meta is back on the frontpage” and there is “way too much off topic talk on the frontpage”??? What would we do???

I hope you can really answer these questions.