Discussion of Covid-19 information (No holds barred)

This is the problem I am talking about, I am not debating anything virus related here, just the fact there is a distance between biases and it prevents discourse. There should be no gap/chasm and there is.

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This distance is created by MSM propaganda, not human nature. Human nature is shaped by evolution to favor understanding and compromise, except in extreme conditions, and the propaganda and censorship are creating those conditions.

“(Desmet) says there are four conditions that need to be in place to enable mass (psychosis) formation to occur in a society. The first is the presence of large numbers of socially isolated, atomised, people. The social bonds between people need to have been weakened. This is the most important, and the other conditions follow from it. Secondly, there will be large numbers of people who experience lack of sense-making in their lives and work — people who feel that their jobs are senseless, meaningless. Thirdly, there requires to be ‘a lot of free-floating anxiety’ — i.e. anxiety that is not connected to a mental representation so that the sufferer doesn’t know why he is anxious and afraid. And fourthly, there needs to be a lot of ‘free-floating psychological discontent’ — anger and frustration at, again, apparently nothing in particular.”

-from

Desmet is a clinical psychologist (from Flanders, like me). I think this is a branch of ‘science’ where I would be very carefully to pose big theories: how are you’re going to proof these?

Factcheck statements Desmet (Google translated from Dutch)

Why Prof. Mattias Desmet spreads harmful nonsense (Google translated from Dutch)

Ps: The attention for Covid-19 is fading here atm. In Flanders: a lot of people vaccinated, only masks required in public transport and e.g. hairdresser, no mandate (maybe small exceptions in future), no Corona pass needed (except big events), probably not a strong push for 3d vaccination for everybody in the future, …

Sorry, but I don’t rely on Google to check facts.

As far as Covid fading from view in Flanders, I expect it will come back into view when people realize their immune systems have been seriously damaged by the so called vaccines, not to mention when they get around to regretting the loss of their freedoms.

Maybe this is too loud?

To be clear: the fact check is not by Google, only the translation. And the link to the original in Dutch is there for you to read or translate in another way.

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I don’t read books, because I don’t trust the librarian… :roll_eyes:

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factcheck.vlaanderen’s funding comes from the flemish journalism fund, which in turn is funded by journalismfund.eu, whose funding comes from
“Journalismfund.eu’s activities in 2021 are made possible through the support it receives from public, private, and corporate funders. It extends its gratitude for the generous and consistent support it has received from the Adessium Foundation, Arcadia, the Dutch Postcode Lottery (via Oxfam Novib), the Open Society Foundations, Porticus, Stavros Niarchos Foundation (SNF), the King Baudouin Foundation, Fritt Ord and the Flemish Government and others who wish to remain anonymous.”

This is not the librarian, but the authors of the “fact checking” algorithm

I assume you don’t trust (some of) these funders? You know Desmet works for the University of Ghent, which I’m sure is also funded (partly) by the Flemish Government.

The Flemish Government is one thing. The Open Society Foundations (George Soros) are another. I doubt Prof. Desmet is funded by Soros.

I’ve always seen the idea of the safe network an incredibly bad idea in the short term for the reasons discussed previously around mis information and children. Although I’m a firm believer that the misinformation around covid is coming from all sides. Only when people learn to think without dogma can they think freely.

I see the short term pain around an uncensored internet as an evolutionary step. When you can’t control speech and ideas through control you have to go elsewhere for solutions. The only solution is to have a well educated society who understand how to think. My only worry with that is that many educated people don’t know how to think without filtering their thoughts through ideologies and dogma. Then the only solution will be a radical overhaul of education.

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Ok, I’ve heard of Soros and his reputation by some. I’m sure that for a lot of people an article like this doesn’t have to be (completely) ignored because part of its funding is by an organization founded by a figure popular in conspiracy theories.
But it isn’t bad that funding of things like these is known: everybody can decide for himself what to do with that information.

Edit: from here: Vlaams Journalistiek Fonds 2018-2019 → So they aren’t even sponsoring anymore.

Wait, Soros is funding the “fact checker”, not Desmet as far as I know.

Part of this issue is the destruction of credibility of our media (including big tech), leaders, educators, and experts. Not all, but enough. For example the radical censorship of discussion around the actual covid/vaccine risk/reward by age and co-morbidity. Given the scientifically published data on risk and transmissability there seems no reason to recommend never mind force healthy people under the age of 50 to be vaccinated (this is just an example). The mantra “safe and effective” hides messy underlying data. And there is no doubt the vaccine has killed some people. Is it less than the virus would have for those same people? For now most likely. But who gets to decide who has to take an experimental vaccine that doesn’t prevent infection or spread (Delta variant)? That makes it a treatment. And it’s suspicious that the only FDA approved vaccine (Pfizer) is only approved in a form that’s not available. These are really complex issues and it’s obvious from the money trail that big pharma has spent enormous amount of money on politicians, lobbyists, and the media to squash any debate. And is this all an intentional campaign by globalists (e.g. Klaus Schwab - WEF) to re-invent the world or the natural progression of unethical forces during easy times? So this leads to an extreme level of fear and distrust. No easy answers.

And that opens the door to speculation about aluminum-based life forms in the vaccine. To me there is zero credibility in that. To me that is fear porn. But confirmation bias is strong. Once you believe that “the powers that be” don’t have your best interests at heart (how could they; they’re not really supposed to?) things get messy as fear takes root. No easy answers. There are stories, ideas and concepts that span the range of credibility. I fear that humans may not be equipped with sufficient critical thinking skills to sort this all out. At least not yet, but Gen Z is inherently skeptical so there is hope. These are difficult and dark times.

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If there was nothing to hide these types of discussions would be encouraged and the questions and concerns some people and doctors have could be alleviated. Instead the majority of the voices who have a different opinion to what the ‘party’ have is silenced and ridiculed. Call me skeptical but I find that to be a problem.

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I totally agree. It is really THE problem. If we could have an open, honest discussion of mainstream issues and concerns the more radical ones would have less hold on our attention.

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Implicitly, you are debating here. When you characterize information that deviates from the official narrative (and your own opinions) as misinformation you are taking sides and making your position known.

Public Health England
COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report: 23 September 2021 (week 38)

59.5% of the population is fully vaccinated
39,270k fully vaccinated & 26,730k unvaccinated

Population Death Rate
Time period: week 34 through week 37 of 2021
Death within 60 days of Positive Test divided by population Size

865/26,730k = 0.0000324 Unvaccinated
2868/39,270k = 0.0000730 Vaccinated

2.25X HIGHER population death rate in the fully vaccinated

The fully vaccinated are 59.5% of the the total population yet they account for 76.83% of DEATHS!

Hawaii

…after a year of strict lockdowns, passports and coerced/forced "vaccinations"

ZERO% vaccinated in 2020 to
58% fully vaccinated and 77% partially vaccinated in 2021

~Sept 2020 vs. ~Sept 2021
425% More Cases
50% More Hospitalizations
150% More on Ventilation
26% More Deaths

Cases
August 26, 2020 = 305
August 27, 2021 = 1,600

Hospitalizations
Sept 8, 2020 = 315
Sept 7, 2021 = 473

Ventilation
Sept 4, 2020 = 36
Sept 4, 2021 = 90

Deaths
August 28, 2020 = 38
Sept 3, 2021 = 48

NO “VACCINES” and >> 38 << people died

HEAVILY VACCINATED and >> 48 << people died

In a population of 1.45 Million, neither number is a “Pandemic”…

Shouldn’t the deaths be at least half of last year? Or are these “unvaccinated deaths”?

Hawaii DOES NOT PROVIDE statistics on the vaccination status of the deaths = too big a number of the deaths are fully vaccinated…no other explanation.

You can’t leave unless you have political favor or celebrity status.

I am saying explicitly the misinformation is on all sides.

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The statistics, while interesting, I think require some more break-down before conclusions.

For example, it may make sense for the death rate to be higher among the vaccinated if that population is older and/or in worse health vs. the un-vaccinated. That is typically the case. Also, it may be that un-vaccinated people are more careful about risky situations or are at least at lower likelihood of infection (say living in rural areas).

Comparing across time periods is also very tricky. I am from CT and was part of the initial wave coming out of NYC. Despite fearmongering in the local media about the delta wave lately and cases being up nothing in 2021 comes close to what we had for hospitalizations and deaths in early/mid 2020. Cases only look comparable because there was no testing back then to drive those numbers up (hence the shift to focusing on cases in the media). The shifting sands of how numbers are reported and differing populations makes it very difficult to draw solid conclusions.

Of course even one death is a tragedy. But the increase in mental illness, suicide, loss of livelihood from lock-downs and mandates doesn’t get the same press and can be just as deadly. An interesting statistic is that in the US the average age of death from covid is higher than the average life expectancy.

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