Discussion about the conversion from MaidSafeCoin to SafeCoin

safecoin
maidsafecoin

#1

Does the conversion really require burn phase? Can’t tokens transition be fixed at some bitcoin block number. And any transaction after is irrelevant. People can claim their coins with their private keys if they are owner of the MAIDSAFE token before the last block. This would allow very easy automatic claim process and would even help many with taxes, since burn movement is tax event in many countries. In my country if I bought MAIDSAFE token at $0.5 and I have to burn it when the last price is lower, and than I want to sell new token at $0.5 I will have to pay income tax from the price difference. First transaction is counted as loss, and second as profit. And losses can’t be claimed for tax lowering. So I really hope there will be no need for burn:) I know, many will disagree, but they do not live in such tax hell.


My first, and probably last, video show-casing the SAFENetwork. And why I'm leaving
#2

not burning for SafeCoin is a problem, because there are people who keep their MAID on the exchanges…


#3

Exchanges can freeze deposits and withdrawals and exchange their wallet for new token. They will have to do it anyway. Also as far as I know, MaidSafe token will be exchanged after multiple test nets. Exchange date can be well known weeks before that happen.


#4

Brainstorming on this topic, I’ve often wondered why MAID ever needs to be decommissioned. It’s already established and on the popular centralized platforms and has the potential to provide a rather efficient interface between safe network internals and current crypto infrastructure. This might be even possible via some autonomous MAID:SAFE exchange subroutines that require no human intervention.


#5

Just easier to have a burn address so that people can continue to buy/sell MAID before the exchange time frame ends.

But why? Exchanges will simply exchange safecoin instead of MAID.


#6

Because safecoin only exists inside the SAFE network. MAID is outside the SAFE network.


#7

@DavidMc0 How true.

I would be extremely fearful of anyone with that power. Especially considering the importance of this project to the future.

Yes I hope a dose of reality occurs and Mr joyful can succeed in his endeavours.

Does not really means anything special.

And MAID only exists in the omni protocol
ETH only exists on the ETH blockchain
So SAFEcoin will exist on safe and exchanges will simply have a coin-account on the safe network for each customer.


#8

Exchanges can allow trading, just withdrawals and deposits would be halted and exchanged from old to new token on that event. Anyway, there is significant difference between fixed block number and burn process. With fixed block number, all owners who can claim token are known in front, those addresses can be hard coded into network. Who will handle burn process? With burn, there has to be either some automatic way how to deal with BTC blockchain on network or there will be central authority holding coins and manually assign them in time when burn event happen. It is security problem, what kind of decentralized network it is, if there has to be central owner of so many coins. What if they got arrested? Or coins are stolen? Who can guarantee every owner will be credited later? How long will be this burning allowed. As a new user would you trust such network if there is single owner of so many coins, which can be stolen so many ways.


#9

Yes one allows people to do what they want after exchange starts and the other locks people in and scamming can occur because buying selling MAID off exchange or on exchanges that do not provide the exchange will not result in safecoin for those who buy.

I’ll vote (if there was one) for the burn address method which allows the greatest flexibility and no scamming by people on those who didn’t know yet that the block was mined already.

With the burn address exchanges can still do the conversion to safecoin for their customers


#10

Lets write down pros and cons:

Burn process

Pros:

  • Users can trade on exchanges anytime, except for date when person responsible for handling burn process will stop processing transactions.So there is Deadline, but not immediate. After deadline trading will be impossible on old exchanges too. Can such deadline end in not crediting coins to investors? Is it legal to stop crediting them? Maybe there will have to be automatic transition in the end to finish unclaimed tokens after some deadline.

Cons:

  • People have to send some BTC to their address to be able to burn it.
  • There is a deadline with fixed block number on day 0. People will not be able to deposit and withdraw on old exchanges on that day ± some days before/after
  • There has to be some person holding all the coins and be trusted and responsible for sending Safe coins in distant future.
    -There is central authority holding lot of coins, vulnerable to attacks and stealing. Process can’t be automated and hardwired into SafeNet.
    -Burn process makes Taxing hell in some countries, since burn process is often TAX event of exchanging one token for another. This does not apply for automatic process, since user is not making transaction

Feel free to add, modify that list. I am biased into my solution, so I for sure forgot some good reasons for yours.

EDIT: I see I did not categorize second part correctly. I am not gonna change it, since it is my mistake. But feel free to fix it for me.


#11

No they can keep trading, there is only a name change.

The deposits and withdrawals are stopped during the process and we’ve seen that with other coins that have done something like that


#12

That sentence is not about trading but about burning process. Some person in MaidSafe company will have to handle burn process manually or run some script and will be holding lot of coins. This person will eventually have to stop this in future. So this sentence was about deadline, there will be always some deadline, either on day 0, or on day 365 or 3650.


#13

The double spend issue appears the stumbling block to your suggestion, but I think you raise a good point.

The early investor coins (I would assume) will be moved over pretty quickly so whoever does the transfer does already have a multi billion $ target painted on their back.

The real scary part comes months down the road when most likely at the last minute tens of billions of $ worth of tokens will all be dropped on the authority responsible. Every single hacker out there on this beautiful planet will be sitting waiting.

There is precedence of course for the coin burn but it is going to take a bit of thought and preparation prior, as per the crowd sale we should always expect the unexpected for better or worse :face_with_monocle:


#14

So let it evolve to NOT be just a one time burn address. The SAFE network could have an API that takes a MAID omni address and a receiving SAFE address as inputs. When a certain amount of MAID arrive at SAFE’s (autonomously controlled) blockchain/OMNI address that matches the MAID address previously provided to the API, then the network sends an equivalent 1:1 amount of SAFE to the previously provided safecoin address. This could flow both ways, so that if someone transfers a certain amount of SAFE to the one of the safe network’s SAFE addresses, then a certain amount of MAID is transferred automatically from the safe network’s MAID/Omni address on the blockchain to the user designated blockchain address. Seems like this could be easily scripted using some wallet software. No humans involved, and centralization could be managed… the network stays in control of everything, and you get a built in MAID:SAFE dex.

Pros :

  1. Current MAID holders won’t need to worry about missing a deadline for exchanging their coins since they could do it at anytime into the future.

  2. Long term investors don’t need to transfer MAID into SAFE at launch if they don’t want to, so they can sell, trigger the tax event, and pay the capital gains taxes at a time of their choosing, rather than being forced to sell at launch as @Antifragile is concerned about.

  3. No human involvement after the initial coding that builds the dex functionality into the safenetwork and securely generates the network’s private MAID keys. The network will already have one or more SAFE addresses where it stores the rewards to be issued to farmers in return for resources.

  4. Symbolically tells the origin story of the safe network.

  5. No need for current exchanges to list another token. Everything is already in place.

Cons :

  1. MAID survives, and instead of being renamed, SAFE partners with it. Might be considered overly complicated/confusing by some (@neo ?).

  2. ?

EDIT: way off topic at this point… maybe a mod could pull these into another thread?


#15

Once the MAID are burned, the burn can sort of be reused by a different project by signing a message proving you have control of the address that burned the coins.


#16

One of my concerns (and several non-techy folks) is how to exchange the MAID token to SAFEcoins when the time comes. I really dont understand private keys etc that well. So hopefully Maidsafe will develop some mechanism to help folks like me - when the time comes.

Usually, I think paartnering with an exchange may help as most folks are familiar with that process. I can transfer my tokens to an exchange- the exchange automatically swaps it for SAFE and then I can simply transfer the SAFE coins to my safe wallet. Thats the simplest way I understand things. Sending tokens to an address, those get burned etc etc - is way above me. Technically.

I hope Maidsafe team team makes it easy for folks like me to do the exchange in a safe way.


#17

But technically your first way is much harder.

Lots of extra steps.

If you just send them to a burn address, it’s the same thing as sending them to an exchange address.

Except the exchange method requires people to do lots of additional steps after that.

Sending to a burn address does not.

You can see an example of an extremely streamlined burn process of my project’s tokens at the bottom of safe-fs.io


#18

The scroll speed is all messed up on your site Will, maybe the jQuery.scrollSpeed.js - worth investigating.

EDIT: I would also suggest making the social icons svg


#19

I get the concept, i think… what i am strugling with is that if I send coins from my Omni to burn address, how will Safecoins be returned to my safecoin wallet. How does Maidsafe know about my safecoin wallet address. Or do i need to first send from Omni to my safecoin wallet and then send it to the burn address from there so that safecoins are returned to the same address?


#20

Although I think we will still have one who disagrees. :wink:

That process will be developed. Its easy enough to do, just need to specify it and make sure it is secure.

One potential easy and secure way is to do this.

Many wallets allow you to sign a message with your keys and you simply send a signed message with the coin-account ID to Maidasfe on the safe network. The message contains the transaction ID and coin-account ID and then Maidsafe (could be automated) validates the message.