Chicken or egg first?

It depends upon the business model of the app, and how they generate their revenue. Perhaps people have to prove that they looked at some advertising. It could even be a paid-for app, which uses the Safe Network (perhaps behind the scenes), and as part of the package they give ‘free’ Safecoins. (Feel free to quibble with my use of the word free).

How about apps like the Civic one?

Other ideas:

This is not very tastefull, but someone could set up a gateway whereby people are paid small amounts of Safecoin in exchange for paying attention to some advertising. :fearful:

Are people aware of BAT? Basic Attention Token. The intention was to integrate this into the Brave browser (and others down the line). It reorganises the advertising model, partly so that consumers get paid for their attention to advertising. Could we have two versions of the Safe Browser? Bastardise one of them so that people get paid in Safecoin in exchange for proving that they have paid attention to some advertising. Once they have accumulated some Safecoin they can upgrade to the advertising-free Safe Browser.

People can decide what they want to do. Pay for Safecoin with some kind of money (directly or indirectly), or pay for it by exposing themselves to advertising.

I know this is not ideal - I’d prefer it if we could solve the problem in another way really…

Edit: will people really have to do one last ‘dance with the devil’ in some way just to be able to gain un-gameable access to the Safe Network?

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I suppose what I’m thinking is that a subset of people may resent paying specifically to get on the Safe Network, or might just not be at all interested. If there were a popular app which just happens to give Safecoin to users it may encourage those people to get involved.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea you suggest a great deal, but I’m trying to think of more options to cover more bases.

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I think that it will mostly happen organically. I’ll send coins to my friends and family to help them setup an account and get started. Many people doing this spreads adoption very rapidly.

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With the level of awareness now, it’ll take forever.

Viral sharing is the fastest and most efficient way to grow awareness.

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Quality awareness yes. Why not combine both? Good sharing + powerful marketing. Best of both world

I didn’t say anything about not marketing in other ways. I’m always advising a mix, and also to make appropriate use according to stage and context. My point is that if we can tap into effective viral approaches it will not take forever, and will in fact be the quickest route to widespread awareness. That’s what Facebook has used for example.

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I get the concern around squandering marketing funds and allowing people to game the system. However, I think there is a balance between believing “if we build it, they will come” and bolstering the likelihood of success (and not ending up like MySpace or Palm Pilot) by taking proactive steps to grow the network. I guess the question is, how can you increasingly take luck out of the equation.

I don’t think holding a competition by which 5 or so promising developers with influential networks can win enough safecoin to join the network and start developing apps (that would in turn further grow the SAFE network) would be any more susceptible to gaming the system than, say, holding a hackathon with a cash prize. When something is new, different or untried, sampling and trial is often used at launch. I also don’t quite see how a one-time give away of a limited number of coins could dilute the price, but there may be an aspect of the economics I’m not considering.

That being said, I think sampling and trial programs shouldn’t be made available to everyone–only those who have the influence to generate a good return on the investment (i.e., marketing cost of providing introductory resources at a discount) by growing the network and/or building something of value.

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Why not have Maidsafe pay prospective SAFE account holders to advertise SAFE a la google ad sense. To further lower the barrier, make it possible for the person to simply copy and paste a code/banner into the most popular social media platforms that is tied to their email address (for payment) or better yet a micro wallet app that plugs directly into the SAFE client for easy private key transfer into the network.

Click count is relayed to MS servers that dynamically adjust rewards based on current Safecoin value. The lower the value of SC the less clicks necessay to earn one. Better still would be to issue micro coins (or it’s equivalent) in the way of @neo s divisibility proposal. Win win IMHO. SAFE gains more exposure and users gain entry. :smiley:

One time events, and prizes are not a problem because someone has to put up the coins and there is not a way to continually get coins. The worse problem with that as I can see is that the same person wins most events, but that should be unlikely if its done sensibly.

The issue I was responding to was where a site is setup to giveaway free coins with perhaps some hoops to jump through. The thought with those is that the network would create coins just for that purpose. That idea would be gamed and it would affect the worth of the coin.

Maidsafe cannot just create coins period be it for giving away or otherwise, the network startup will have the 10% for MAID owners and 5% reserved (set aside and likley held by the foundation) to pay out investors in maidsafe the company who wishes to exchange their shares for coins at some time in the likely far future.

So someone has to put up the coins for any giveaways or prizes and this will not have any diluting effect since there is no coins being created to give away.

As David has said in the past temporary accounts with limited ability will likely be allowed to be created and will only be made permanent upon payment of a coin. The account would likely disappear as soon as the user closed the SAFE browser to prevent an avenue for account spamming. So maybe limited ability to create a mail ID and wallet ID and maybe 50 PUTs to send a mail or two. This is not definite but was a possibility being considered. This would allow a “trial” and to receive mail.

The idea of a voucher would work well with that because the user creates their temp account, loads the wallet ID off the voucher and pays for the account by spending what is in the wallet to buy “PUT” balance.

Also I would consider that at todays prices a voucher has about 1/1000 of a cent on it. (maybe a million to a billion) put balance and a physical voucher can be given as prizes, or bought in a physical shop for 1 to 2 dollars (the price of a phone sim card) or bought in a “play-store” for mere cents. And all the instructions are on the card or in the “play-store” APP & its description.

So a person/company can make a business out of providing vouchers. No effects on coin price/supply since they have to have the coin before they can create the wallets and put 0.00002 SAFEcoin in each wallet.

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I think it would be nice if the SAFE Browser by default came bundled with a Vault, at least on Desktop. When installing, it could ask how much disk space you’d like to share, perhaps with an option to let the Vault choose dynamically and shrink the shared space if the disk was getting full. The installer should show a little explanation that this will help to earn SafeCoins that can be used to buy content and posting stuff to the network. Users who doesn’t want a Vault could just choose to not share any disk space. It could bundle a Vault on mobile also, where by default it would only share disk space when connected to WiFi and charging.

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I have been telling people. They are too skeptical. Further to that there is no product just yet. But that has not stoped me :grinning:

It’s always a matter of different people at different stages. At this point it is mainly about people with particular mindsets, interests, values and skills, and who want opportunities to build products and businesses on a brand new empty canvas. That’s pretty restrictive, so unless you target those people I’d expect most people you approach not to be interested. But with effective targeting and a useful course of response for those folk, it can be worthwhile.

The viral stage can’t work effectively until there is a large number/high proportion of potentially interested people, and a low enough barrier to getting on board (relative to the level of motivation evoked by the message). I’m sure their must be PhD theses with formulae for this stuff, but it is probably best to put effort into trying things, measure and refine.

Marketing fills in the gaps around these two, but doesn’t have to be expensive if it can be targeted effectively at potential joiners, the makeup of which will change and expand (needing less targeting) over time.

The final stage is when everyone knows about it because most people are using it, and it becomes unavoidable. That’s a long way off, so for now we can focus on getting through the early stages, and trying to make the most of viral and other opportunities appropriate to the situation at the time.

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Well said. Fully agree. To me it is a great product and tech. Hopefully it changes the existing platform.
Thanks

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Agreed (printing coin just ruins the integrity of the system). It sounds then like coin was not set aside for marketing costs/programs then.

The idea of contributing MAID/Safecoin (eventually) to reward promising developers that would build apps to grow the network is something I wouldn’t be opposed to as an investor, so long as the developers were properly diligenced. I wonder if some sort of smart contract capability could be used to prorate and allocate the payout based on how much non-spam traffic (I.e., new users/use cases) the application drove to the network over time. That might more adequately align incentives.

In general, I’d be less inclined to subsidize consumer (as opposed to developer) adoption of the network, though, because I think that’s harder to more directly tie to value creation. Admittedly, I might be thinking too narrowly on that point.

I’d agree with that basically. Still no to creating coin out of nothing for it though, since it was not of the conditions in the crowdsale of MAID.

Have you read the proposal for a “foundation” to assist developers of SAFE APPs?

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I think the setup should contain a short quiz about network requirements (I’m thinking PC uptime and bandwidth) to see if they are good candidates for sharing drive space though, If they only have their system on for an hour a day it would be a waste of effort and only get their hopes up for no return.

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The installation should be click and go I think, minimal questions. Let’s not ask the user to think! That’s an enormous barrier - “farming, eh? WTH?”

The best UX is one that anticipates (through thoughtful, design, structure and presentation rather than intervention) what the user wants to do as they proceed to use the software and start to look for ways to do each new thing they might want. It’s tricky, but worth trying because it can be the rocket fuel for a killer app to take off.

To enable farming we should obtain consent, but let’s make that either really simple (a checkbox “enable farming to earn SafeCoin (learn more)” for example), or leave it out of the install (it can be available later, for discovery on a menu or toolbar button, or a prompt at an appropriate time like when they need some coin).

Once farming has been enabled, I think the software can avoid wasting the user’s resources without bothering them unnecessarily, and for advanced users there can be ways to override defaults.

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lol, yeah, fair point.

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No need for a questionnaire if the installer is able to do a quick scan of the system. Just pop up a message: “Your system is a good candidate for running a vault, please see . . .”