BitLaw - Polycentric Law in Crypto-Space (part 2)

Because the goal isn’t to impose my sense of morality on them. As I have explained above one CAN’T and since I believe in freedom I shouldn’t anyway. If they choose to buy and sell their reputation then they should be free to do so. I don’t believe it’s moral and personally I find the practice disreputable, ironic yes, but one should still be free to do it. Moreover I have also pointed out how simply buying one’s reputation would cost if not backed up by actual works. And I have also illistrated how playing the market would be difficult in a resource backed economy. The goal is to measure reputation gains or losses not prevent people from trading in reputation or doing subjectively disreputable things.

To use an anology if one was to create a Murdercoin and measure the investment of people killing one another that is not necessarily an endorsement to kill one another. It’s simply a gauge as to the value of what an assassination job, and therefore a life, is worth. We can all agree killing people is bad. That does not prevent people from trading death. Creating a unit of measure simply helps gauge the value thereof.

In short I am creating a unit of measure of something that is already being traded: reputation. I can agree that selling integrity is bad, just like killing people is bad, but likewise that doesn’t stop people from doing it. Creating a unit of measure helps gauge it’s worth. Moreover allowing people to easily trade reputation for works allows them to establish social bonds which is the original purpose of the coin.

Are you missing the part about there being a record of how many people are on the SAFE network? As it stands no one can say for sure how many people are on the SAFE network, what they believe, where they are, or what their voting history is. If anyone managed to match someone’s name to their token address then under your system they’d have the entire voting history. At the very least they’d be able to track demographics of the growth of the network. If you know there are x many safe users and y many are using this particular app that supports these politics then you can figure on the general politics of that segment of network.

Moreover how does this system help the individual? It’s just more politics.[quote=“Al_Kafir, post:120, topic:4755”]
Well, firstly, holdings would reflect support/investment in the project.- so it starts as being as fair and equitable as the crowd sale - it then gets more equitable over time. The issue you raise can be something that is addressed as the network grows - ie say each token is then “burned” in exchange for 2 or more newly named tokens to reflect the growing community.Also, the 1% deducted could be re-distributed as giveaways.
[/quote]

Okay so let me get this straight: You’re creating a “votecoin”? That is a coin to represent one’s political say. Okay here’s an obvious flaw in your logic. What if people just start selling them by the truckload? If they’re automatically redistributed then what if someone says “I’ll pay you to sell me your votes.” He then takes the votecoin and uses it to vote for some nasty politician? HELLOOOOOO CORRUPTED DEMOCRACY! Lobbying is in the house!

Because you’re creating a votecoin. Votecoins can be traded. Tradable things can be sold. Sold votecoins are the key to a corrupted and pointless democracy. I’d opt for a straight up anarchic free market over a democracy any day if for no other reason than you know what you’re dealing with and democracy is inherently corruptable and falls to oligarchies and fascism. As you have JUST demonstrated by proposing the creation of your votecoin.

Yes. To either utterly corrupt the naive ideal of democracy or try vainly to redistribute power in a finite resource system. The former being inevitable and the latter being daft.

I see… :wink: OK…what is your goal?[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
Moreover I have also pointed out how simply buying one’s reputation would cost if not backed up by actual works
[/quote]
If you get that point, then it should be a simple step to also see that your “reputation coins” are worthless in regard to reputation, unless that reputation is earned in some way. This should further lead you to conclude that having any large amount of them is also pointless in this regard and therefore they should have no monetary value.
The coin you are advocating, doesn’t even work in the way I thought you meant…lol. Reputation is something perceived by others by way of observed behaviour etc - the coins should be used to give reputation to others, or vote - not to amass an amount to enhance one’s own reputation by buying more of them.
Why don’t you have a goal consistent with your beliefs, rather than the opposite?
I don’t get it… :smile:[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
To use an anology if one was to create a Murdercoin
[/quote]
Well, is that your next goal, which would be perfectly consistent with your reasoning? :smiley:
.

I don’t think there will be any connection.[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
As it stands no one can say for sure how many people are on the SAFE network, what they believe, where they are, or what their voting history is.
[/quote]
Correct…ok[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
If anyone managed to match someone’s name to their token address then under your system they’d have the entire voting history
[/quote]
Why do we need names? It’s only the token address…isn’t it - like a bitcoin wallet?[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
At the very least they’d be able to track demographics of the growth of the network.
[/quote]
Wouldn’t that be a good thing in any case - isn’t that helpful?[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
If you know there are x many safe users
[/quote]
How?[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
If you know there are x many safe users and y many are using this particular app that supports these politics then you can figure on the general politics of that segment of network.
[/quote]
Yes, you’d know x amout voted one way and y amount another - exactly what anybody needs to know to call the outcome of a vote - what’s the problem?

It gives them an equal voice/vote.[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
Okay so let me get this straight: You’re creating a “votecoin”? That is a coin to represent one’s political say.
[/quote]
Among other possible uses, yes. Not explicitly political.[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
Okay here’s an obvious flaw in your logic
[/quote]
Thought there might be… :smile:[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
What if people just start selling them by the truckload?
[/quote]
They have no or very little monetary value - it’s like asking "What if we gave them all away free - well, that’s the plan (Nonchalantly flicks fly from ointment…… :smiley: ) .[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
what if someone says "I’ll pay you to sell me your votes
[/quote]
The other person has to decide whether to sell his votes…obviously. As I said, this opportunity for corruption, should lessen over time as each time a big “block vote” is made, 1% of those used will be re-distributed by giveaways etc.[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:121, topic:4755”]
He then takes the votecoin and uses it to vote for some nasty politician? HELLOOOOOO CORRUPTED DEMOCRACY! Lobbying is in the house!
[/quote]
Lol…I can’t believe you are arguing that, when you are advocating a much worse “corruption coin” designed with the express purpose to buy/sell reputaion. Even just on this point, anyone with eyes can see literally almost anything would be a better suggestion than yours, if preventing corruption was any part of the goal… :smiley:
Lol,…how long’s your post, I need a break…I’ll answer rest of post later maybe.
Cheers :smiley:

Anyone who has ever worked at a corporate job knows integrity can be compromised and reputation can be bought and sold. Are you willing to wear the stupid paper hat or not? Are you willing to lie for the company or not? Are you willing to try to sell a product that is ultimately harmful or useless or not? Do you in fact have any ethics at all or are you willing to just do anything for money? The sale of reputation is not a new concept.

No the express purpose is not to buy/sell reputation. One CAN buy and sell reputation but that is not the express purpose. The express purpose is to trade reputation for actual reputable work. That is you perform a reputable act and you get repcoin, or credit for repcoin You do something disreputable you lose repcoin or gain a debt that must be paid in repcoin. But since reputation is a subjective value it cannot be coded mathamatically like safecoin would be. People would need to set their own prices. Hence creating an economy of buying and selling reputation. When you do something good you are in fact essentially buying reputation. When you do something bad you are in fact selling reputation, or paying in reputation, however you wish to look at it.

Money = power and power inevitably corrupts whether we’re talking about maintaining one’s reputation or a democracy. That’s why you walk softly and carry a big stick. I’m not saying my system is better than yours. I’m saying believing that turning democracy into a crytocurrency and then believing people will not try to trade their votes is ludicrous. If you can’t hoard the votes then you can pay people to vote whom you like. This is why I do not believe in democracy in the first place. Ultimately one cannot maintain true anonymity and avoid mass lapses in integrity at the same time. You know how you’d know if there was a high incidence of integrity in either system? Is if there were few offers for repcoin/safecoin or votecoin/safecoin or some other crypto currency for them in the exchanges. In short if people refused to engage in trade and refused to sell their honor or their votes.

When someone earns something they are trading an action for a measure of something else. You are essentially saying here that one should be able to trade A for B and not C. And while I agree for the most part there is no way to enforce this. This inability to enforce integrity is crux of why democracies fail and why reputable people can be bought.

Ok…I get it. The coins are like badges awarded by…who exactly? [quote=“Blindsite2k, post:124, topic:4755”]
I’m saying believing that turning democracy into a crytocurrency and then believing people will not try to trade their votes is ludicrous
[/quote]
I don’t believe this though - hence I addressed it with the depreciation.and yes, people could pay others to vote. Again though, this would be less effective over time. I don’t believe there is even a system imaginable that could prevent this, so it doesn’t really get us anywhere.[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:124, topic:4755”]
This is why I do not believe in democracy in the first place. Ultimately one cannot maintain true anonymity and avoid mass lapses in integrity at the same time
[/quote]
Not sure I follow you…in Democracies, it is 1 person 1 vote and how an individual voted is not known. [quote=“Blindsite2k, post:124, topic:4755”]
You know how you’d know if there was a high incidence of integrity in either system? Is if there were few offers for repcoin/safecoin or votecoin/safecoin or some other crypto currency for them in the exchanges. In short if people refused to engage in trade and refused to sell their honor or their votes.
[/quote]
So why not introduce preventative measures…such as depreciating any holdings, as I proposed. The upshot is that the nearer to zero the “value” is, and the wider the coin is spread, the less fertile the ground is for the corruption to flourish. [quote=“Blindsite2k, post:125, topic:4755”]
You are essentially saying here that one should be able to trade A for B and not C.
[/quote]
No, as you agreed yourself, the optimum outcome would be no trade, so don’t incentivise it!..lol[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:125, topic:4755”]
This inability to enforce integrity is crux of why democracies fail
[/quote]
Again, no. The inability to enforce integrity is just the same as saying you can’t make bad people good - it has nothing whatsoever to do with any inherent property of a democracy.

reputable people can’t be bought, if they could, they wouldn’t be reputable… :smiley:

Whoever is giving out trust. Your employer, your employee, your romantic partner, your book club associates, whoever. The point of the reputation system is to measure reputation and trust. The big question of the system is “Is this person generally trusted by the community? Is this person honorable?” Of course since different people perceive honor and award it different ways they will award reputation coins, or credit, differently but the big question is ultimately the same. Or conversely they might issue debt or demand coins for bad behavior.

If you’re asking how are the coins generated in the first place I haven’t figured that part out yet. As in how does the network generate them. I was hoping to have some kind of proof of work formula so that one could actually back reputation with actual proof of work. So say individuals from the community issued special measurable tasks that people could do for the community that could be run by the network and measured quantifiably. Creating such tasks would spit out safecoin or large amounts of reputation coin as incentive for their creation. Then whenever someone performed the task they’d get some reputation coin which they could then trade for other tasks of subjective value. In short can the network trust you to take out the trash and do simple tasks? Yes/No? If yes then you get an allowance of repcoin to do with what you will If no you don’t get to first base. This would also allow people to “get a job” and gain reputation even if there weren’t any “jobs” available. It would also be an easy way to set up tests for one’s educational level and create incentive for one to improve it. “Pass this academic test and gain x amount of reputation coins!” But this is kind of the farming level. Performing turn the crank provable tasks in order to gain reputation. So that you can trade that for reputation that’s based on more abstract concepts of loyalty and honor.

Of course another problem with this system is when one creates a reputation task is how does the judge it’s quality? How does the network judge the quality of the logic and that it’ll function as a reputation proof task? And how does the network know how to grade such a task? How does the network know how difficult the task is and how much repcoin to award?

You don’t believe there’s a system that prevents people from paying others from voting? Then doesn’t that defeat the purpose of democracy?

Someone needs to know how everyone voted in order for the votes to get tallied.

What would stop people from being bribed to vote as another wished? What would make it less effective over time.

Because generally one’s trust doesn’t go down over time. If one’s holdings of reputation depreciated over time one would be saying one became less trusted over time.

No. As far as reputation goes we want people to trade. We want them to trade repcoin for acts of reputable service. We want people to associate acts of reputation with the symbol, coin, of reputible service. For that there needs to be trade.

Then perhaps we should hook the two systems together and whenever people buy or sell votecoins they are charged a debt in repcoins.

You know dude let’s stop fighting and start working together. Both systems seem to have similar issues. You’re not a fan of reputation/money/honor and would prefer to distribute power. I don’t believe in democracy one bit but both reputation and democracy seem to have the same fundamental issues. So perhaps if we work together we can get both systems working and each have something functional to play with.

Yes, I was…OK, so this needs figuring out, as a very first step, before there’s any point in going any deeper into this idea really. [quote=“Blindsite2k, post:127, topic:4755”]
The point of the reputation system is to measure reputation and trust.
[/quote].
II really don’t think it does this.[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:127, topic:4755”]
Or conversely they might issue debt or demand coins for bad behavior.
[/quote]
Who will? Who will acquiesce and why? This again, as I stated maybe over 6 months ago when the "polycentric Law Part 1 thread started. I said at the time that you were proposing a club system - club rules, not “laws”.
I find it funny that this thread on the main page has been going on almost forever and is pretty off-topic and never seems to go anywhere…what exactly is this thread about…lol…it has never ever had anything whatsoever to do with “Law”., yet is not considered either off-topic or a distraction to the community in the way others have been…seems inconsistent to me.
As I’ve said, time and time again, you are proposing various club rules suitable for a private club…not the Network as a whole.
You just can’t buy/sell reputation, so making it a currency and treating it as such is pointless to me. :smiley:

If you’re asking how are the coins generated in the first place I haven’t figured that part out yet.

It is generated during and shortly after the transaction exchange.

This means when you preform and complete a duty that was given to you by a company, at that time frame, the company has a choice to give you a repcoin. The transaction can be something that is other than money such as tasks, company request actions, shipping, timing attacks(such as pizza delivery), and more. There should be a time frame in certain cases such as shipping. You want to make sure the product is delivered properly, ensure it is not tainted, and allow users to give a chance to give a repcoin to the producer.

1 Like

Let’s cut to the chase. If the “repcoin” is free and freely given and has no monetary value - then the idea has some plausibility. However, once you can buy/sell repcoin it becomes something else - just a coin, which in no way, shape or form reflects anything to do with one’s "reputation. Reputation, as with respect, is earned not bought, …simple as… :smiley: .

Why would they give you a repcoin? It’s extra cost (if they buy it) or worthless (in which case it’s, well, worthless).
In all likelihood it’d be worthless (like the stupid frequent flier miles).

Actually I just wanted to point out to @Blindsite2k and you that from feedback (comments) noone thinks there’s anything remotely workable in your proposals, which is what I expected when I said anything workable, when it happens, will happen on sites/projects that spend months if not years of research on this single topic.

1 Like

That sounds simple enough.

The whole reason reputation has value is it has monetary value. You pay extra for someone you trust, ergo trust has monetary value. If reputation didn’t have monetary value we wouldn’t go out of our way to pay extra for it and someone with no reputation would be able to get a job as easy as someone with reputation. The whole reason someone goes to college IS BECAUSE reputation has monetary value. And sure reputation is bought. If I know everything on a tech course or something and am only there for the degree then I am literally buying reputation. If a programmer is taking a course to PROVE he knows how to program he isn’t earning anything he is paying for a piece of paper. But in no way shape or form is he learning anything new or having to earn anything. It’s like saying to a carpenter while he’s building a house “Pay me a huge amount of money to take a test to prove you know how to build houses.” And the carpenter stares at you for a second and then points at the house he’s building and says “But there’s your proof sir.” And you go “I know but you need a piece of paper to give you reputation. So you need to pay me for that reputation.” Ergo buying reputation. Every time a teacher wants to charge for their services they are instituting the notion of “buying reputation” be it via private or public funding. Granted the idea is that teachers would pass on knowledge but if teachers and professors become the gatekeepers for reputation then their charging for service simply becomes purchase of repution whether one has the skills or not.

The part I don’t get is how you think you could STOP people from buying/selling repcoin or votecoin? Or how you think you could stop people from buying and selling reputation and/or votes in general. That’s the part I don’t get and if you have some amazing idea please share it.

You don’t need to stop them. When it’s “buy-able”, it becomes worthless.
A bitcoin or SAFE address doesn’t have a reputation. A token is even worse, because it can move anywhere.
For addresses, you wouldn’t buy one (because you can’t change the private key, in case of bitcoin) but you could buy “farmed” reputable addresses for one-off fraud and with a reliable supplier who could automate that, you could buy “reputation”.
For a while, that is, until people figure out that reputation system is worthless. With tokens that you mention that time is like 1 hour, with farmed addresses maybe 1 or 2 weeks.

I find it funny that Kafir criticizes your idea, but his idea is even worse (he’d just give the freaking coin away).

There are no ideas, it doesn’t work. There is no working system for decentralized and anonymous reputation as of now.

Agreed, well at least I don’t know of one :smile:

I don’t think it’s impossible though - take a look at the “prezi” introductory presentation (click right after each animation stops), over at metacurrency.org

Their idea is not so much reputation, but about us transacting in ways that support the flows (currencies) that we value. I think reputation is implicit in that, or would be a necessary component. Resilience has some similarities.

Both projects seem to decentralise by shifting the power into many individual choices, each earning the right to exert a small amount of influence through an equivalent to blockchain/SAFEnetwork “proof of work/resource” - by being linked to a real transaction of some kind.

I’m still not sure about the anonymous bit, but it seems to me that just as with an account you can’t sell because you have to keep the private key secret, it could be made to work. Just don’t ask me how :smile:

I saw the metacurrency.org Prezi (warning: one has to go through 20 short videos to get to this part): scenarios they mentioned seem psedo-anonymous. There was one kind of semi-anonymous example for consumer (being able to tell the carbon footprint of each product you buy) but the amount of information gathering for that would be enormous and probably have huge implications for privacy of all producers involved in any economic activity, so it doesn’t appear they are targeting both anonymity and reputation.

Maybe that’s the right approach. There needs to be several attempts and maybe 2-3 generation of apps that are partial solutions, before one or two become winners and take off.

1 Like

That’s it…in a Nutshell…and it’s always the same kind of very straightforward, logical and easy to understand, fundamental, bang to rights, no arguing with, no logical escape from reason that fully explains, irrefutably how his ideas won’t work arguments, that are just totally ignored. It was the same at the start of this series of threads from ages ago and I argued with mods about it… :smile:
It’s not even just off-topic, its incessant, never goes anywhere and has been on front page since I was a lad…lol

Lol…what’s wrong with that, if given to Safe coin holders 1:1?

I’m not techy, so maybe I need to understand why what I proposed loses anonymity.
I get that the token movements can be tracked on Blockchain, but not grasping aspects of what the issue is. Could you or someone else explain please? :smiley:

Okay let’s assume that reputation/honor and anonymity do not mix. If you are anonymous then you do not have any reputation, not because you are a bad person, but because you are an unknown. You’re starting at 0. No possitive points and no negative points. Is this to say that to gain the security of reputation one must sacrifice the security of anonymity? Could this whole conversation be summed up in the phrase “In order to gain trust you must give trust.”

In which case how does one protect oneself and what recourse does one have if those protections fail?

I mean we can’t become a society of paranoid hermits living in our parent’s basements. We are not molemen.

Let’s not, then nothing else you say follows…who created Bitcoin again? Do the group “Anonymous” have a reputation? The argument boils down to “Can you interact with an anonymous person?” I think.
Answer: Yes, what about Safe Network, Smart contracts etc?[quote=“Blindsite2k, post:138, topic:4755”]
Is this to say that to gain the security of reputation one must sacrifice the security of anonymity?
[/quote]
No, I don’t see why?

Good point. Then by using your example how does Anonymous gain and maintain it’s reputation while at the same time maintaining it’s anonymity?

1 Like