BitLaw - Polycentric Law in Crypto-Space (part 1)

[Al_Kafir]

@jreighley

all love is lost

@jreighley

the receiver feels entitled

the phrasing of this, hints at a certain stereotyping of people in receipt of benefits I think…just a vague aroma…
Are you saying somebody entitled to a benefit should not feel entitled to it?
I’m only playing with you … I sort of get what you mean.
I agree that in a lot of ways the benefit system is flawed/open to abuse etc - this doesn’t of course mean the fundamental principle to provide welfare is wrong though - the system just need fixing and people need to be given more individual choice as to where taxes get spent - directly, rather than via a Govt representative- this is where the de-centraliling and crypto tech can help

@jreighley

Private Charity is preferable because the Receiver feels blessed

The word “blessed” hints at another way of thinking about morality and I think this actually gets us to the fundamental nature of our dispute - we disagree at a very basic level; our beliefs must be based on entirely different moral philosophies.
When you boil everything down, you appear to arrive at your conclusions based on an Absolutist moral “code” - thou shalt not …say ever coerce or thieve.
I arrive at my conclusions based on a more Stoic moral code (thanks to @Seneca for informing me of this ) -there are no moral absolutes - the consequences are of more…well, consequence.
These are our basic “back ends” or “root programs” sort of thing so we will probably never agree about what “software” we should be running.
In summary the argument boils down to an Absolutist vs Stoic philosophical debate …that will always be the necessary end point of any further debate.

[anon81773980]

Updated on the title, rules, and changed the category from APP to OFF TOPIC.

Edited: Hmm seems like off topic does not belong in all. Revert changes to APP. Since it is potentially an safe APP.

[Southside]

Its not up to you, pal.
If you don’t like the way this thread is going - (cos your libertarian pals are getting their argument shot to bits) then start another one.
Since when did you become a moderator?

[Al_Kafir]

@anon81773980

At comment 225, debates about political stuff must be stopped. I established new rules,

lol…have you now… - how were these rules established, have you become a mod now?
OK, back on topic then - how can we enforce these rules in a polycentric way?
OK,only kidding, but your OP was inherently political,so hardly surprising the discussion became about politics.
I would suggest moving this to off-topic then start again with a fresh title…prob best if people not interested in the conversation?
Serious question though…what’s the difference between “poly-centric” and de-centralised"?

[anon81773980]

Serious question though…what’s the difference between “poly-centric” and de-centralised"?

Finally, a good question.

Polycentric is still decentralized because it removes the centralization power and put the power into individual hands. Self-governance. No person has higher power to govern others unlike in statist societies.

Varys: “Power is a curious thing, my lord. Are you fond of riddles?”

Tyrion: “Why? Am I about to hear one?”

V: “Three great men sit in a room, a king, a priest and the rich man. Between them stands a common sellsword. Each great man bids the sellsword kill the other two. Who lives? Who dies?”

T: “Depends on the sellsword”

V: “Does it? He has neither the crown, nor gold, nor favor with the gods”

T: “He’s has a sword, the power of life and death”

V: “But if it is the swordsman who rules, why do we pretend kings hold all the power? When Ned Stark lost his head, who was truly responsible? Joffrey, the executioner, or something else?”

T: “I have decided I don’t like riddles”

V: “Power resides where men believe it resides, it’s a trick, a shadow on the wall, and a very small man can cast a very large shadow”

[Al_Kafir]

@Southside

cos your libertarian pals are getting their argument shot to bits)

Lol…worthy of front page news for the community I reckon!
Off- topic my arse!..lol

[jreighley]

@Al_Kafir

These are our basic “back ends” or “root programs” sort of thing so we will probably never agree about what “software” we should be running.

Sure, but we could have more than one fork to choose from. I could subscribe to one coin that prescribes certain benefits to my children for example – and so long as I had such a coin, they would be paying x amount and would be entitled to y benefits. If they thought differently they could trade coins for a different contract later… The various programs could buy secondary insurance for their own solvency based on the mathematics of their risk…

Blessed - Gifted - bestowed – choose your favorite word… no need to argue over semantics on that. The idea is that they would realize it was a gift and not an entitlement… They would understand that it came out of a real person’s pocket because that person cared about their welfare… That is the part that tends to get lost right now…

@Al_Kafir

Are you saying somebody entitled to a benefit should not feel entitled to it?

In many cases, the “x” and “y” are absolutely arbitrary – could change tomorrow – No they are not entitled to it aside from somebody made the rules to set the conditions for the government gift.

Sometimes it is different – You pay into an unemployment insurance and that entitles you to benefits – that is different in that it is a contractual obligation… That is what we ought to move towards… And smart contracts cryptocurrencies etc may help us get there…

[Al_Kafir]

@anon81773980

Polycentric is still decentralized because it removes the centralization power and put the power into individual hands

So there isn’t a difference?

@anon81773980

No person has higher power to govern others unlike in statist societies.

I can see how this is a worthy goal insofar as it goes…however it only goes so far before we run into practical difficulties - if you mean what I think you do. I think there is a place for your app, but not for the current purpose - you will be creating more of a “club” with rules if you progress as intended I think.
I don’t really get the “deepity” or why it;s a riddle btw…or anything else about it’s relevance really… in fact from now on… I decree that it is now the law on this thread, that people should no longer literally talk in riddles…you know who you all are!

[Blindsite2k]

@Al_Kafir

I may be being a bit thick here, but I’m totally confused as to how the trust/giving shares away thing works then. Are you saying that we start with something that is publicly owned by every resident, past, present and future - basically a common resource similar to say internet, air or water even (not too much of a stretch I don’t think and Nestle’s Ceo has already tried to argue that water is a commodity as opposed to a common resource).- then “somebody” decides it’s going to be privatized whatever the residents think - the only choice the residents get is whether they want a lump sum or to be given shares and paid a dividend? Please tell me I’ve got this wrong

Okay if a resource is publically owned, let’s say water for example, why do I need to pay a tax on it? If I am a co-owner on something why do I need to pay a third party for it? This is especially true for natural resources like land and water that do not consume resources. If I own something why am I paying for something I own? If we build an hydro electric plant what are we paying for? We own publically owned resources do we not, we own land, we own the water, so all we need now is to work the electric plant. But you can’t own people or their pay cheques. What are you going to do say “We own all this stuff, we’ve got the plant built and now you MUST come and work in it and accept our paycheque or else.” See that’s essentially what taxation does. You can argue that people collectively own natural resources. You can even argue that people collectively own what physical objects they collectively create out of those resources. However you cannot argue that you have the right to compel people to utilize those objects. Such compulsion is called extortion and/or slavery. If you compensate them for their work it’s extortion, if you don’t it’s called slavery. And you have yet to prove collective ownership because it would totally undermine the concept of private property. How do you resolve collective ownership of public property and private property?

[anon81773980]

Safecoins/assets
I am still studying the safecoin, and still wondering is it possible to do to create asset coins? or would it be better to use safecoin as an asset?

According to the my research, safecoin can be anything. It can be email replacement very effectively. Or selling entertainment. Once you retrieve the coin, you could replace the current data with your newest data and send it out. This mean that each coin would be worth more than the coin itself. .00000001 safecoin (property asset) could be worth 1000 safecoins, or 5btc. The data inside of the coin is what makes it valuable. However it is limited memory. It is limited to several hundred kilobytes?

If that is the case, what if it uses magnet links? I brought this idea up couple months ago about using contracts that is stored in magnet links, and stored in toml format. I need to explain more about this idea, than what it was offered in the link. But I realized that human readable isn’t needed. What is needed is programmable contracts, like ethereum. With a different set of rules. Contracts will be talked in the next segment.

Let’s calculate how much there are in existence. 4.3 billion with the divisional by 8. Which is 430 billion assets in existence. Thats a plenty but we have 7.5 billion people on the planet, and growing. Every person would be hold three assets, total of 22.8 billion assets. Another 22 billion can be use for something else. But this calculation was done on this exact date. What about 10-15 years from now? I guess for now, it would be okay.

Real Estate/3rd party Validators
To build the polycentric society, we firstly need to build proof of property.

There are several ways to create individual real estate. Anybody should able to start business such as real estate with zero cost. However, the key component in this entire ecosystem is to incentive people to be more ethical, and moral. Greed, and for profits are part of the human nature. It needs to be utilized properly, and punish unethical behaviors.

Real estate agencies charge people for validation, or can be free depending on their service of choice. The established rule is they must visit the property, take pictures, meet face to face, and publish the documents to for anybody to see. This is the downfall of the being anonymous. However it is quite impossible to be anonymous when it comes to buying property. So it is wise to create one account for real identify purpose. And the rest will go to your anonymity identify.

Have users use safecoin as an asset. .00000001 as a property asset. Property owner then send a message to real estates for proof of validation. On the property asset page, you get to see signatures with 3rd party agency logo. The more real estate stamp of approval, the strength of validity goes up. To publish your asset to openstreetmaps requires 10 or more real estate agencies stamp of validation. However, this will introduce bad behavior when a person could create multiple accounts, stamp it on his own asset, and say, this is mine now. We need a reputation system for this case. Validators needs to be easy to access, and hard to proof.

Maybe set a limit that no users can’t stamp until it has reach certain level. This could incentive spamming in certain ways. This needs to be discussed.

But in the end of the day, the most complex system is I want to get rid of the reliance on humans for validations. To program proof of property would be a very difficult one. Trusting AI to do the work means that we are allowing AI to commit moral and ethical decisions for the people. Dangerous spot to be in.

[Blindsite2k]

You are basing your whole system on a very capitalist concept of philosophy. I’m just saying this because this is supposed to be a decentralized polycentric system is it not? What about things like possession property? What about gift economies where honoring what one gives rather what one has is more important? (And therefore shaming greed.) I’m not trying to get into a big philosophic debate here. I’m just pointing out that a lot of what you’ve just written is based on a lot of philosophic and economic ASSUMPTIONS about how law should work. Not every legal, ethical or philosophical system will agree with you and therefore will want to have additional flexibility.

@anon81773980

To build the polycentric society, we firstly need to build proof of property.

Define property. Are you talking about anything you own, just land, what?

@anon81773980

The data inside of the coin is what makes it valuable. However it is limited memory. It is limited to several hundred kilobytes?

What are you trying to do? Why is the data limit important?

@anon81773980

Have users use safecoin as an asset. .00000001 as a property asset. Property owner then send a message to real estates for proof of validation. On the property asset page, you get to see signatures with 3rd party agency logo. The more real estate stamp of approval, the strength of validity goes up. To publish your asset to openstreetmaps requires 10 or more real estate agencies stamp of validation. However, this will introduce bad behavior when a person could create multiple accounts, stamp it on his own asset, and say, this is mine now. We need a reputation system for this case. Validators needs to be easy to access,

Right you might want to clarify this because this is making NO sense to me. Also why so many real estate agencies? What if there aren’t that many available in your area? If we’re talking land here then one needs to deal with local businesses do they not? And one cannot guarentee that they’ll have 10+ real estate agencies to choose from.

@anon81773980

But in the end of the day, the most complex system is I want to get rid of the reliance on humans for validations. To program proof of property would be a very difficult one. Trusting AI to do the work means that we are allowing AI to commit moral and ethical decisions for the people. Dangerous spot to be in.

I would ask how do we ensure we aren’t relient on A.I. and what happens if the A.I. breaks down, goes rouge or what safeguards or back up plans are in effect. What happens when the power goes out? Do you have candles or a backup generator? Same concept.

[Al_Kafir]

Post 1.

@Grizmoblust

RULE

Absolutely NO political discussions

Post 2

@Blindsite2k

You are basing your whole system on a very capitalist concept of philosophy.

Looooool…

[Blindsite2k]

Well I did warn him the two were intermingled.

[anon81773980]

@Blindsite2k

You are basing your whole system on a very capitalist concept of philosophy. I’m just saying this because this is supposed to be a decentralized polycentric system is it not? What about things like possession property? What about gift economies where honoring what one gives rather what one has is more important? (And therefore shaming greed.) I’m not trying to get into a big philosophic debate here. I’m just pointing out that a lot of what you’ve just written is based on a lot of philosophic and economic ASSUMPTIONS about how law should work. Not every legal, ethical or philosophical system will agree with you and therefore will want to have additional flexibility.

Okay. You’re right. I am actually making assumptions.

Define property. Are you talking about anything you own, just land, what?

Yes. To own cars, apartments, house, buildings, lands, boat, floathomes. For an example, to access the household or a car, you need a coin with right information and identification to pass to the house node.

You can also set up rent or lease. The renter obtain a coin with specific data that allows him to access to his house.

The house node receives the coin, scans the data inside of the coin. If it matches, it accepts, and sends the coin back to the renter without modifying the renter’s coin. The house node thens unlock the door.

What are you trying to do? Why is the data limit important?

I thought it was limited to keep the speed insanity fast? If there are no limit then some coins would take longer process to send through the network, correct? Even then, unlimited memory inside of the coin would be awesome. No problems with this.

Right you might want to clarify this because this is making NO sense to me. Also why so many real estate agencies? What if there aren’t that many available in your area? If we’re talking land here then one needs to deal with local businesses do they not? And one cannot guarentee that they’ll have 10+ real estate agencies to choose from.

It would be still same business and usual. A different way to approve land ownership other than going through centralization system. Maybe just ditch the idea of real estates, and go more radical way. Everybody can sell/rent/loan/lease their property on opestreetmaps.

Inside of the coin data,

Product Serial Number: (To match the House Serial. first pass)
ID/PGP: (For clearance access to household. Second pass)

Additional info that can be added.

GPS: (Address)
Location: (Address)
anything else?

[anon81773980]

Yeah, I can inconsistent in some areas.

[Seneca]

@anon81773980

I am still studying the safecoin, and still wondering is it possible to do to create asset coins?

It is. SafeCoin is a type of StructuredData. Anyone can create their own types of StructuredData with the same capabilities as SafeCoin, except for the function of buying resources from the network itself.

@anon81773980

or would it be better to use safecoin as an asset?

It wouldn’t, you gain nothing by it, it only destroys the fungibility of SafeCoins. I’m not even sure the data field of the SafeCoin type will be mutable. Fungibility is a good argument to opt for immutability.

@anon81773980

However it is limited memory. It is limited to several hundred kilobytes?

Limited to 100 KB, but you can point to other data on SAFE in that 100 KB, so it’s effectively unlimited.

@anon81773980

4.3 billion with the divisional by 8.

This is incorrect, SafeCoin is not like Bitcoin and all. SafeCoin can divide far more than that in theory, but it has to be explicitly enabled in the code. This is because unlike a Bitcoin, a SafeCoin is an actual data entity. Bitcoins are just balances of addresses on a blockchain. A SafeCoin is a data entity (object) that has an owner field which contains one or more public key of the owner(s) of the data entity. It has to be recorded in the SafeCoin itself that it is divided into parts. This creates extra overhead, potentially a lot, so the current plan is to only enable divisibility when the SafeCoin market price warrants it. This is no obstacle to your concept though, because virtually unlimited asset tokens like SafeCoins can be created for whatever purposes we want.

@anon81773980

If that is the case, what if it uses magnet links?

Seems unnecessary to me, the SAFE network provides the same capabilities as magnet links and more.

[Blindsite2k]

@Grizmoblust

Yes. To own cars, apartments, house, buildings, lands, boat, floathomes. For an example, to access the household or a car, you need a coin with right information and identification to pass to the house node.

You can also set up rent or lease. The renter obtain a coin with specific data that allows him to access to his house.

The house node receives the coin, scans the data inside of the coin. If it matches, it accepts, and sends the coin back to the renter without modifying the renter’s coin. The house node thens unlock the door.

This sounds entirely too complicated and would require additional tech be added to any structure in order for such a system to function.

Say I wanted to build a log cabin in the forest strictly out of, you know, logs. No tech whatsoever. Your system wouldn’t exactly function. Your system requires that the structure or object, that the property in question, be able to accept and transmit safecoin or that the person in question desires it, or is in a position that they are able to, have it to do so. This is a false assumption.

@Grizmoblust

I thought it was limited to keep the speed insanity fast? If there are no limit then some coins would take longer process to send through the network, correct? Even then, unlimited memory inside of the coin would be awesome. No problems wi

Yes but what are you trying to DO? Why are you trying to store data inside the coin? Why not just transmit data the standard way?

[anon81773980]

Well there are still rules in anarchy.

I post a rule on this thread because I started a thread. Anybody can contribute to a thread. So this rule is classified as sub/user clause. The main clause is the safenetwork forum rules of conduct. It is quite similar approach to reddit. Reddit rules of conduct is the main clause. The sub clauses are the subreddits. And the user-clause are inside of the thread they created. Apply that same ideology with your peers, and business. As radical this thing idea is, you could easily overlap the rules with everyone. Each customized in it’s unique way.

[Al_Kafir]

@Blindsite2k

Okay if a resource is publically owned, let’s say water for example, why do I need to pay a tax on it?

To pay for the infra-structure and supply lines to your house, maintenance, water purifying , staff wages etc I expect. In the land case, you don’t as a starting point have any greater claim on it (say a country) than any other user of the land. The group, as a group developed laws over time concerning property/land and these kind of taxes go back into the community pot essentially I think.

@Blindsite2k

If we build an hydro electric plant what are we paying for?

The same as in the previous examples you just asked about. I’m not sure what you’re saying after this part.it seems to descend into the usual “Slavery” “Extortion” baseless assertions which have been addressed many times.Nobody is compelling anybody to do anything.

How do you resolve collective ownership of public property and private property?

I’m not following you and what do you mean I have to “prove” public ownership - by what means>

[Ghaunt]

You don’t want to be ruled but you want to rules others.