Austrian economics and the safe network

You can’t keep changing words, just because one group or another tries to co-opt it. It is up to thought leaders to defend the original meaning, not retreat away from it.

Free trade and freedom of association in general are cornerstones of a free society. They absolutely should not be confused with coercive activities done under the deception of free trade and association.

Let’s be clear - statism is coercive at its core. Suggesting that statists can help to promote free trade is like saying farmers can help to protect cattle. While on the surface it appears true, the cattle are only safe while it is in the farmers’ interest; they will be slaughtered when it isn’t.

Continuing the analogy, we must move away from a world of farmers and cattle. This hierarchy is based on one party having overwhelming power over the other and it should be rejected to enable humanity to move forward.

In short, the playing field needs levelling and the war of words needs to be fought and won through bold free speech.

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Great book! It was a revelation when I discovered it during the great recession. Bitcoin was just appearing on the horizon and Hayek’s words were prescient.

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Those are incredibly foolish stats. And as far as intelligence you’ll find people like Einstein on the left and people like Hitler and Paul Ryan the right. The rise of Regonomics, violent crime, Randian Libertarianism and Palin/Trump in the US can easily be attributed lead induced brain damage from lead in the gas and systematic dumbing down in school including refusing to teach history.
On every developmental scale you will find a pretty clear picture of conservatism on its lower ranks, because its always a fear based perspective. Some on these forums have become so confused they argue for privacy but against organizational transparency, free speech (i.e., for money as speech censorship and for anti neutrality) also against powersharing or more democratic structures- they argue for more totalitarian structures but insist the buzz words justify them- they are ok with rule by money, refusing to see how horrid that is and how it leads to rule by inherited wealth.

Markets don’t self regulate. I hear your pain, but I think you have this wrong. Just aa soon aa we can get rid of the state that is fine. But just as the communists argue we’ve never seen communists the free marketers argue we haven’t seen free markets. But we have seen free markets. You also might want ti that a harder look at the US prior to 1913, it still had a frontier but in so many ways was still pure shit.

That’s kind of hard to disagree with. I agree.

Traktion basically nailed it. But here’s a bunch of boring additional words.

A certain level of fear is going to be with societies for awhile to come, until some kind of protection is provided, by whatever means that is… that doesn’t even let fear in. In the meantime, the economy has to get rid of hyper-inflationary currency methods, and all sorts of government out-of-control “regulations.” Smart technologies/systems like SAFE can provide a new rule set that nobody wouldn’t want to follow. I think it can make decisions much more easily not-forced, without fear of being traced either. (At that point, corrupt powers will resort to even more horrible ideas for control back into their ideological structures. But it’ll be a full frontal show of evil at that rate, and of course good wins against that, even though it stings a bit.) Call it a special way to distribute the wealth in a way that doesn’t involve coercion, which nobody likes (and I mean not one person-- regardless of whether or not they deserve it).

Maybe there can be 2 free market meanings: Traktion’s denotation, and then Warren’s vision of a literal “free” market —which doesn’t encompass everything, just some, or perhaps a lot, in some nice future… but never everything. There, now everyone’s happy… I think. It’d be like a bubble that people can try out. “Here’s a nice area where everything’s free! Enjoy your stay! You may leave at any time! Unless there’s an emergency, then you’re trapped inside and you might die. But at least you’ll die ‘free’.” I’m probably missing something there. But I can imagine it’d be a nice taste of what literal free societies would be at one point in time, and people may be able to taste better and better bubbles the longer they try the next future version of these fake societies.

It almost seems absurd to think about—likely because it’s really hard laying out scenarios that would actually exist, and when you try to lay them out, you start to consider certain things/entendres. I mean, does literally 0 dollars even matter?? Why can’t people be happy with some beautiful hamburger (maybe hamburgers aren’t the ideal food in a future society, actually, even if it was Literally Raised By Jesus) costing 5 minutes (instead of 5 hours or whatever) of labor at some job (i.e. meeting quotas at a place of service, which enables such a price to even exist)—in a just society where God-/Love-filled people run out the dirt bags that unfortunately exist (not that they shouldn’t try to be treated/adjusted)? Ever wonder why kids don’t feel the need to work to get anything, as long as they don’t act haywire? Because they’re so full of energy and wonderment. They’re so lively that parents love them and reward them just for living, because they remind them of near-perfect times (and whatever other/biological reasons). Of course, sadly there are a lot of permanently haywire kids now, yet parents still reward them. Imagine everyone retaining as much childhood energy as possible, and while not having rewarded-haywire Syndrome, and then you can start talking about free/nearly free societies.

Health is definitely my main interest besides other technologies, and I definitely know about every evil that goes on in America especially. Sadly it’s possibly already too late for a lot of people. GMOs will kill off a lot of people in the coming generations because of delayed onset of disfigurement. You don’t even need to wait until it happens and then look back and regret not doing something as your kids are dying horrifically deformed; you just need to look straight inside you right now.

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GMO’s: lol, please create a new off-topic so that I can mute it

:slight_smile: (20 charactersss)

I’ve said it before but I think it needs to be reinforced; there is a definite positive fit for Austrian economics as defined on https://mises.org/ and the SAFE network. To me it’s a ‘no-brainer’, a win/win situation. The immense source of knowledge on and available via this website needs the SAFE network to allow it’s economic principles and moral philosophies to become realities and in the process will ensure that Safe network becomes THE new internet of the future. The consequence of such a partnership over time will result in denationalized control of money, smaller government devoted to protecting the rights of the people, absence of wars, true freedom of trade and price discovery, increased employment, innovation and entrepreneurship, and a correction of the grotesque imbalance of wealth as between the top 1% and the rest of the world. Happiness will pervade to planet.

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Read “Happiness will pervade the planet”.

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I think it would be of interest to the Libertarians and free marketeers, so for the sake of balance, I’d say you’d have to have a podcast discussing/debating both sides of the argument.
What about the Liberals such as myself that are not proponents and believe there is a social component to economics that all this Mises/Austrian economics does not provide for. What I mean is that I believe in a tax system to provide for infrastructure and care of the vulnerable - a societal safety net.
I recognise that part of the forum pushes this economic system that relies on charity, but there are just as many if not more on this forum that do not hold with it.
This topic has been debated and flogged to death on this forum already tbh.

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I’ve already said this here (on the forum) two or three times: there’s no argument.
Libertarians (and anarchocapitalists) are for the small government and the more enlightened ones are also against democracy.
In both democracy and less sophisticated forms of collectivism (such as fascism) nobody asks libertarians what they think. And even if libertarians managed to win the argument, so what? They’d still have to pay taxes, put up with the central bank and the rest of the system.

In a libertarian society you would be able to live in, or run, a community where “more” is done for the poor, so in libertarianism nothing prevents more “humane” (in your view) arrangements of like-mined communities.

That’s why it’s unclear what exactly you want to argue about, if not coerced giving (taxation and central bank-driven expropriation of savers and laborers).
I also challenge your self-proclaimed “liberalism”. Faced with a libertarian non-threat, your answer is: pay tax or else.

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Well…you’re clearly wrong…for the third or fourth time.[quote=“janitor, post:52, topic:8444”]
In a libertarian society you would be able to live in, or run, a community where “more” is done for the poor
[/quote]

Any explanation of this, or just the unsubstantiated claim? If you have no community pot to distribute (or tax system) then how does this work without relying on the charity of others? [quote=“janitor, post:52, topic:8444”]
That’s why it’s unclear what exactly you want to argue about,
[/quote]

You seem to use a lot of “therefore”, “so” etc without any substantiated argument preceding it to justify the “ergo”.
Not only IS there an argument, it’s been had ad nauseum on this forum. To try to just portray there is no argument to your position without even substantiating your own claims is basically propaganda.[quote=“janitor, post:52, topic:8444”]
I also challenge your self-proclaimed “liberalism”.
[/quote]
challenge away…lol.[quote=“janitor, post:52, topic:8444”]
Faced with a libertarian non-threat
[/quote]

You’re right it isn’t a threat, as its never gonna happen at any scale. This discussion always ends up with ridiculous shrieks of “Statist” and cries of “Tax is theft/coercion!” etc…this argument has been had already…

Very eloquent and well substantiated!

Now, would you like to share some of your ideas on how a libertarian society could solve the problem of insufficient charity?

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Are you confused or something? I’ve clearly said that a Libertarian Society cannot solve the problem of provision for social welfare without reliance on charity. The problem isn’t “insufficient charity” as you weirdly claim, but the lack of a community pot to distribute.
It’s like me asking you how Liberalism can provide for “insufficient tax”…I’m beginning to think you are right - there is no argument…certainly not from you…lol :smile:
Quotes are screwed and I’m too inept to fix btw…

Right. And I told you that nobody has to live in a libertarian surrounding.
If you want to give more, or get more, you can live in a community next door that aims to achieve that. Maybe they collect taxes or have some other ways to put a chicken in every pot.

Libertarians aren’t against socialism or welfare state; they’re against being forced to participate in one.

Instead of asking how you could organize a community in which social welfare would be addressed better (as in: healthy competition between different approaches), you’re thinking how to argue against competition (which is even funnier when one considers that the supposedly inferior libertarian approach should be expected to fail).

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OK…so this is your main gripe then is it - the fulcrum of your argument? Well, as you say, no argument then…you are not forced to participate in one any more than you are forced to use Safenet. [quote=“janitor, post:56, topic:8444”]
Right. And I told you that nobody has to live in a libertarian surrounding.
[/quote]

So neither things are forced then? The thing is that nobody can live in a Libertarian surrounding without either:
A) Purchasing some kind of land/country
B) Coming to an agreement with the users of that land to do so.
This boils down to property rights (something you believe strongly in) yet somehow doesn’t apply in this case? I think this is where you have to then leap to negating the wishes of the majority and attack Democracy in order to make your ideas even vaguely feasible…that’s where it all breaks down as you don’t appear to ever suggest any kind of workable alternative.

So how would a Libertarian Society provide for welfare then? (please answer).[quote=“janitor, post:56, topic:8444”]
(as in: healthy competition between different approaches)
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean - how can you simultaneously have different systems in place?[quote=“janitor, post:56, topic:8444”]
you’re thinking how to argue against competition
[/quote]

Firstly, you have no idea what I’m thinking and secondly, it certainly isn’t that. I have no issue with healthy competition…I just don’t see any competition as no idea how this could even feasibly work.
Edit:
Let me just highlight the daftness of your claim that you are “forced” to live in a Democratic Society and abide by the group rules, but on the other hand if it was a Libertarian society, then you wouldn’t be forced to live there, or abide by the “non-rules” so to speak. This makes absolutely no sense to me – you are as “forced” with one as the other.
If I am weak and vulnerable and living in a Libertarian Society, totally reliant on the charity of others, then how am I not “forced” in the same way?
I fully expect you to take your Libertarian ball under your arm and march off in a huff shortly……as this has how this argument has typically ended before…. :smile:

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If someone one day builds a floating city in international waters or orbital station, nobody’s rights are violated (maybe the majority’s wish to plunder those who’d escape would, but that would be great). So workable alternatives do exist.
The internet is a subset of those: with SAFE, bitcoin and so on, one can hollow out his or her “real life” participation in today’s society and both earn and spend in the virtual crypto-world without interference from the government. We’re not quite there yet, but that is what the discussion could and should be about: how to get there and what we can do to make that happen sooner.

And one wouldn’t have to buy land to live in a libertarian society. Like in most places today, you can rent if it’s cheaper. Or take out a mortgage.

It wouldn’t. Some individuals would donate to charity organizations and personally.

Of course you can. That’s the whole point! A libertarian society can have socialist cities; a socialist society can’t have anything but socialist cities.
One group of people incorporates City A, another group of people incorporates City B. Why would a libertarian care if you chose to live in City B and pay a 40% income tax?

A libertarian society would be free of institutionalized coercion. It doesn’t mean that there would be no socialist and communist cities. A group of communists could join their resources, make a compact and acquire 50 acres of land on which they could do what they please as long as they don’t violate other people’s rights (e.g. discharge waste to their neighbors’ lands).

The problem socialists have with this arrangement is that they can’t exploit its citizens as they can now. As long as serf can pack his suitcase and go across the street, the system becomes unsustainable.
An EU person who wants to avoid socialism today basically has to leave the continent. The more the EU grows, the more expensive it gets to get the hell out of here.

I propose you let those who want to take the plunge worry about the feasibility. Noone is asking you to contribute anything.
I indeed have no idea what you’re thinking. You want to “discuss” about libertarianism and your arguments boil down to “it can’t work, but just in case you wanted to give it a try, I’ll fight against you even though I said I’m for healthy competition”.

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You could start with Hayek, there was an Austrian that didn’t mind welfare so much and that’s a rift between the Austrians. Kind of going in the direction of Libertarian socialism like Chomsky.

“Not full employment” as above in the thread, no full unemployment so everyone can play! Some people working for other people for money, voluntary prostitution is more honorable. Some people involuntarily working for other people out of need for money is just plain wrong given the tech we’ve inherited. If you want that go back in time but it wasn’t even necessary yesterday. Its totally unjustifiable today.

@ResearcherGuy posted this. This belongs in this thread like no place else.

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" I’ll try a response to this topic once again. I got shot down hard last time but it is simply too important of a topic to leave to the central authorities.

We can debate whether a basic income is needed or not but I’d rather discuss a possible implementation if I could. The rapid approach of technological unemployment from automation costs dipping below human labor is a provable justification to all who care and follow logic but the implementation can’t seem to get air time anywhere. I believe there to be a method which satisfies all parties while doing more good than any other program humanity has produced.

In the current fiat money system, the game is rigged so hard as to hide all the big scams in plain sight. Most people don’t comprehend inflation of the money supply, debt-based money creation or the shift to rent-seeking as a way of making money simply by having it. All these lead to the rich getting richer just because they’re rich. The result is accelerating inequality with no checks and balances left against it. In a world where abundance is near, support for the old scarcity game only prolongs the transition and makes it brutal. A single change in any crypto-currency could completely turn this around but in doing so, it would hyper-promote that currency and I feel only a ‘good’ one should receive such support. This is why I only promote this on either Bitcoin or Safecoin, because I believe in them (for different reasons).

By adding an autonomous transaction fee of 1% to all transactions and sending to a dividend fund, that fund could be dispersed to every validated human equally each day. All parts of this process would be automatic with no human control over it. This is a new digital form of basic income which solves all of the social problems that government proposals will fail at. It is truly universal, meaning it crosses age and geographical borders equally. By being market driven (no guarantee of how much moves each day), it starts tiny and grows only as the membership grows. Initially, just a few cent’s worth per day per person would help the most poor in the world a lot. But as they signed up and began spending, daily transaction volume would rise, boosting the fund and the dividend. This makes it attractive to groups a little more wealthy (say 10 cent’s worth/day/person). As even more are enticed to join for this ‘free money’, more commerce is attracted to sell thingies to those people and it grows even more, attracting significantly more investment from the fiat side into Safecoin businesses. In short, it helps the poorest of the world and grows to help ever-higher wealth people in a self supporting way.

As such, it will enhance the membership of the entire MaidSafe network which I believe to be a bigger benefit to society. (Don’t have to tell this group, I would guess.)

But here’s the cool parts. In attempting to validate that there’s only one account qualifying for each human, I’ve come up with a way to do that while helping global health advancement in a still decentralized manner. We could require a DNA scanner to create the account and two more ‘accepted’ scanners to validate it. In this way, the identities of 3 different scanners is needed so faking the scanner hardware is harder (or impossible if done well??). The result would then be an unnamed unique DNA genome sitting in public which medical researchers could use to find statistical information on. Perhaps some simple demographics could be included with much caution so as to not be able to identify the person. However, metadata tags can be added by the researchers as they find that this genome carries a certain trait. However, with every re-scan by the human, they can see what tags their genome has had added to it. This is of great benefit to them but that’s off topic too far for here.

These scanners are currently $1,000 each now but with massive incentive, this could fall to $10 so each scan could become a simple cost of doing business for some. The benefit would be that taking part in creating an account would pay one tenth of a day’s dividend to the scanner for signing each of them up. This is now a large market similar to mining is today in BTC. Many people will become scan farmers which will further drive membership adoption. And by doing all this, millions of anonymous DNA genomes will be available for researchers to work with for their research.

Initially, however, the fund begins growing before scans can be done. This pot will be dispersed equally to all accounts with a $100?? limit/person/day. So those first people will basically get a full income for free and the scanners will too if they signed up at least 10 people each day. But before this can begin, there needs to be some consensus on how to standardize the conversion from DNA info to secure account ID. If this takes a month, the pot will grow for that long, having no withdrawals but if it takes 6 months, the pot will be 6 times as big. This means that after the standardization is complete and people begin creating these accounts, this initial fund bubble will last longer and longer before deflating into its normal daily size. That’s lots of $100 dividends given out before this happens so lots of people will chase this money. When it finally does, there will be many more members and much higher daily transaction volume, creating 1% of that amount as the total daily dividend pool.

Currently, in the fiat money world, there are transaction costs for just about all money moves. Some are visible and others hidden but they’re there and people pay them as simply part of doing business. This proposal would remove the ‘free’ aspect of money transactions in the crypto it is implemented in but even in Bitcoin, transaction costs are rising via market forces alone. The difference is it would effectively replace the corrupt welfare systems around the world with a 100% efficient one. Every nano-money unit would go only to the daily dividend.

Also as automation systems begin to perform bot-to-bot transactions with the IoT or even with micro-payments from content sharing, these transactions would be included as well. This means that as automation optimizes jobs out of existence, society is not left without a survival path.

By being completely inside a decentralized system (like Bitcoin, or Safecoin), it cannot be manipulated or stopped by any govenment. But by being in Safecoin, it forces those who just want the dividend to join the already useful and socially helpful MaidSafe network. And if people join and see how useful it is and see how many others use it, they will eventually use it themselves.

I can’t stress this enough though. Automation is removing jobs at a very rapid pace. Many current estimates suggest half of current jobs will be gone in 15 years but it only takes a few % more to cause social unrest. In fact, many countries are experiencing it already even if some people attribute it to other causes. But all this is not happening equally across all locations or all industries. As such, some form of welfare, increased unemployment, negative income tax, social aid will need to increase. Government versions of these and all basic income proposals by national governments, states or even small communities WILL introduce waste and corruption as people attempt to game those systems (from the top or the bottom). The only way to avoid this global chaos is to do it well and privately, before they do it the wrong way.

Thoughts?"

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