Appendable Data discussion

Nor can it see sneakernet transfer of the datamaps.

Nor maps kept on external devices and perhaps shared (ie sneakernet)

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Yes this is true. The account blob is entirely different. It is the thing you download and decrypt to login.

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Yep, that’s what I was suggesting and what the encfs library could easily allow. Although I think deleting the partition when finished would be cleaner.

I’m sure there are other alternatives too. and @neo’s idea of using MD’s in the account blob would work too, but maybe slower - although would be less temporary (and would travel between devices) which could be a plus for some things.

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I’ve never seen this other account blob.
From what I have seen, the account blob is today an MD, and if MD is replaced with AD, then that would be immutability with current proposal.
But if it is truly like this, that there is yet another type of data, that can be deleted, well then there are some more factors to it all… Can’t say yet how I would recompute that info. but I’ll be back :slight_smile:

Self auth - quick overview.

You add one password - it encrypts stuff.
You add another it derives the location of the encrypted stuff.

You pay a bit of safecoin to store in that location and store your blob there. (you cannot store any old stuff, it is restricted and not shareable).

Go to any computer with those two passwords and you are logged back in with your keys and root dir all there for you.

So that is it. The stuff, is a blob, obviously it is things like keys and such, but also at least your root data map, which you may have several. So you have a bunch of data that is accessible from that root dir. If you then kill this block or just don’t ever request it then all the data from that root is inaccessible from anywhere, unless it was public. In that case it is all still there. All your private data though is gone.

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Agree. Private data could/should be private.

However, i am personally a bit confused when we say data once published cannot be removed. Hope this does not mean that if I post a comment in safenet forum for example and want to delete it, that I cant do it if the forum is on SAFE network. I hope thats not true - if yes, this needs to be thought through…

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With the current implementation it would be like everything is a part of the wayback machine / internet archive. So you could remove / edit your comment, but it would still be recorded and part of a public archive.

Let’s face it, your deleted/edited comments are already treated like this. It is just that on services like facebook, only facebook have access to them, not everyone.

Also, mass surveillance ensures that such deleted/edited information remains accessible, but exclusively to entities with the resources to collect and store massive amounts of information.

So the different with SAFE really is that it gives everyone access to the history of public information, not just powerful bodies.

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I think there should be some flexibility around it. Its not always about imp data that can be sold. There could be numerous other instances where I may want to delete something I posted 10 secs ago and repost something else.

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It’s a difference and there are pros and cons.

But right now your data does remain even if you delete or edit the public version of it, but only a few powerful entities can see it.

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I agree - and I do see both sides of the argument. But permanence is something I’m not entirely comfortable with and the success or otherwise of SAFE in this regard will be in the implementation.

In nature nothing is permanent. We all forget things, or blur them, and sometimes for good reasons of psychological wellbeing. Things die and are forgotten, even stars and planets. People should be allowed to have their transgressions forgiven and allowed to fade into history, otherwise the judgmental and the control freaks could end up having the whip hand, the opposite of what’s intended. That said, I once thought the arrival of the web would force politicians to be honest, or at least consistent, since all their previous utterances would be recorded, but in fact the opposite seems to have happened.

But I do feel people underestimate and possibly miisunderstand the implications of data permanence. It goes way beyond the technology and the ability to delete a drunken tweet, that’s for sure. It’s something that requires a wider debate and should definitely not just be left to technologists. Maybe MaidSafe could start the ball rolling?

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Exactly this is what I’ve been saying @JPL.
There is a deep philosophical implication of this, that transcends convenience of non-broken links, maybe even that of secured history (which is a pretty big deal IMO, just imagine all knowledge that has been lost in various epochs).

Completely agree. Specialized people are pros in their area. When building or inventing things that might change people’s life entirely, the way society works etc. it really would be super important to at least try find experts in relevant areas (what would that be, sociology, anthropology, psychology, philosophy…?) that can be part of the design process.

I can’t imagine any of it to be other than immensely difficult anyway though.

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Users will affect i important implementation details such as this through their adoption / shunning of the network or rather its different functions: private storage versus public sharing for example.

So while I share some of the misgivings, I’m not so concerned about them at this at stage. I’m interested to see what a perpetual Web will become through the choices users make about how they utilise it.

For sure we cannot fully comprehend yet how a pWeb would make us evolve and what the exact impact and transformation of societies will bring, I’m just now thinking (after reading your last post @JPL), that perhaps the pWeb could help us in being more humans, in the sense of accepting us, being upfront when dealing with our mistakes and bad decisions, we are really scared of being exposed in perpetuity with some bad decisions or acts that we cannot remove from people’s memories, like it would be with a pWeb.
But what if that will actually force us all to be more humans and more understandable of our extremely non-perfect nature, we always make mistakes and usually the problem (as you say) is the judgement rather than probably the result of our acts (ofc this is a case by case thing), what if we become more comfortable with being able to say “yes, that was my post 10 years ago and I do/don’t regret it because…” and everyone understands since we all could end up in the same situation with our acts. In fact, don’t we feel a relief (sometimes or some of us at least :slight_smile: ) when we can say “hey I’m sorry, yes it was me making a bad decision” and knowing the rest is aware of you recognising it rather than hoping they forget it. Anyways, it’s all to be seen. Just thinking out loud :slight_smile:

We all ask for the truth of things, are we ready for it? :confused:

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This could be done at the app level. For example, in our SAFE Network Forum we have a 5-minute window to modify a new post we just created. This feature could be reimplemented by a discourse like app by buffering a new post in a mutable data and moving it in an append only data after 5 minutes (or any other default delay chosen by user).

Creation of mutable data and then append only data is done by the app, but the network offers natively the following features:

  • Other users are not able to see the post during this window.
  • The user can delete the post during this window

Note also that if the app is closed during this window the countdown is naturally stopped. The user needs to relaunch the app so that it can move the post to an append only data.

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That’s the optomistic view, and maybe it will come to pass. Hopefully so. On the other hand the powerful may find a way through sleight of hand, media manupulation or distraction to further increase their advantage by obfuscating their own history while focusing public attention on the wrongdoings of the less powerful - kind of like they do now in other words. I can see how permanent data could actually make that worse rather than better.

My real point though is that discussions about eg U64 vs U128 rumble on for ages with every edge case explored, whereas those about the impact of our efforts on society generally boil down to, “yeah, it’ll probably be fine”.

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I am not sure, but I do hope it evolves :wink:

I agree wholeheartedly here. It’s like the story of single use plastics. Companies created them for many reasons aligned with the profit motive and when plastics were inevitably littering the streets and beyond they made public campaigns to shame us for mishandling something that can’t properly be dealt with. We still have single use plastics, smh. Anyways, I would be worried but that’s where the anonymity comes in. Sure we might all suffer from schizophrenia in the end but people will be able to speak more freely with anonymous ID’s. The downside I see there is hate speech etc. obviously I believe in freedom of speech but the internet has some interesting side effects. When we have too many degrees of separation we tend to lack understanding and empathy. I hope someday we have a positive way to deal with trolling that doesn’t limit freedom of speech.

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Education is our only weapon here. Now how do we get that unbiased and changed from this current industrial society stick them in at 5 and produce workers at 16 mentality? True education is hard, but we do need it.

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I just hope the whole permanent/perpetual web thing is designed properly. Perhaps, we launch with a certain version 1 but it should be architected properly for phase II, III flexibility. Imagine some video gets leaked by some students to bully another student. They regret it, are punished and want to delete it. There should be some recourse for the affected child to get his/her video removed. He should not have to live with that video online for the rest of his life.

There’s a lot of examples like this that I’ve been thinking about with regards to the implications of a perpetual web. Not just ‘regrets’, but also true mistakes or technical bugs. What if you upload the wrong picture? Or realize the picture includes some private detail you didn’t know about.

To be honest, I find @bochaco’s comments a little hard to swallow:

I think it’s good advice for people to be honest and admit mistakes, but a perpetual web goes beyond that. Knowing the material is still available and admitting are two different things. I know you have to assume the worst: that people copied the material anyway. But, does that mean you shouldn’t even try to remove the material? Especially if it’s a mistake you realize within a few minutes or hours.

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