Alternative tokens on the Safe network

I think I just had an epiphany. Let’s say the Safe network goes live, and this forum moves there. It will still need moderating and pretty much the same rules will apply. Moderators work for free, but Maidsafe might want to give them some PUTs to use while working on this particular forum. Instead of giving the moderators Safe tokens, Maidsafe might want to give them Clikes, or something like that instead.

I never really understood the point of other currencies besides Safe, but this seem like a legitimate use case. Am I right?

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Few months ago I proposed to add a parameter to safecoin, that could lock it and disable option to transfer it. Such safecoin could be used only for buying PUTs. This would solve the problem you described. Community would pay you such locked coins so you would be able to do your admin work and there will not be a risk that you sell it for profit.

And for this and many other reasons, there need to be other tokens. With SNT only, any economy model requires owner of business first to buy it. But if I as website owner can create custom token and print as much as I need, I can create economy around my website. Users can get it for free, buy it from me, and use it as a currency only on my website. This can’t be achieved with SNT only. We can look at ethereum and its success. Token economy is the main reason why people are buying ETH. They need ETH to move their tokens, they are using it for ICOs, etc. Compare it to BTC. If one coin were enough, than everyone would stay with BTC. But in reality they can’t use BTC this way as they can use ERC20 tokens. Thanks to this network effect we are likely going to see ETH beating BTC in market cap in near future.

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I think, there is a fear in the community, that aditional tokens would weaken the value of SNT. But when we check crypto space, we can clearly see the opposite is true. Token economies make native coin way more valuable. Every acion in token economy requires native token to be spend. It makes real demant for native token stronger. Current SNT token has main purpose as payment for storage. That is very weak usecase for a coin to grow without huge adoption. The fact, that it is anonymous and super fast adds very cool aditional value as a form of fungible money and as a store of value for a wealth that wants to hide. But Monero is better store of value for such wealth. The more features we bring to native coin, the more layers of usecases the faster network effect will work. If we had tokens, than ICOs could move to safenetwork. And ICOs require users to buy SNT to participate in that ICO. That pumps SNT heavily. We have already an experience with Maidsafe ICO. It was a mix of BTC and Master Coin. And it pumped Master coin a lot.
With tokens, we can have a locking economy that people need to buy SNT and hold it for long time as collateral to back other tokens value.(liquidity/exchanges/…). Add to this cross platform operability(oracles/plugins/…) and we can bridge current decenralized finance ecosystem to anonymous web, which will allow 100% anonymity for current non anonymous crypto. (every cross chan transaction, that uses SNT as intermediate anonymize it)

So the value of SNT can grow much much faster than the actual userbase, that is using it mainly as a storage/website platform.

As a rule of thumb, every addition usecase does not add, but rather multiplies the value of the network.

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A simple solution is for the forum software to keep a tally of PUTs done by users. If this is a data leak and might be since there is a tally of PUTs done. So a solution would be for only the moderators and admins have their PUTs tallied. Then the owner of a forum (MaidSafe in this case) could reimburse those PUTs with SNT at the current rate. Yes not exact but close enough.

Community would pay you such locked coins so you would be able to do your admin work and there will not be a risk that you sell it for profit.

This doesn’t work because they could then sell their PUTs for profit. If they have enough [not safe]coin to upload 1 TB of data, then they can offer to upload 1 TB of someone else’s data in exchange for enough safecoin to upload say 0.9 TB of data. Restricting the functionality of some safecoin would only serve to reduce its value.

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Yes, that was the point. To remove monetary value and increase a chance that this locked coin will be used for puts directly.

Well, the idea of locked coin is to solve gaming of faucets, gaming of system, where website owners want to give users small amounts of puts, to make their service free, etc. Selling such locked coins is extremelky difficult, especially if they are in small amounts per wallet. Even bot network operator will have hard time selling millions of such nontranferable accounts. It is impractical to use them, trade them and requires trust, that those accouns will not be sold multiple times, since seller will always know the private keys

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And quite simply is that the owner would be kicking any such admin/mod who uploaded files for other for a profit.

But really, forum posts etc will be very little cost even for admins and mods. Nothing like whats needed for TB of data. I gather the cost of a put will also be adjusted for the size of the chunk/append data uploaded. If it is then forum posts work will be small sized data and cost a tiny amount rather than small compared to 100’s GB files.

And if the forum app keeps track of PUTs done for each admins/mods then there is no chance of gaming is there. And if an admin or mod wants to be reimbursed then they have to let the owner know somehow and whats better than the forum app keeping tally for the admins/mods

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If the tokens are only to be used for specific purposes, maybe a solution would be to create accounts just to moderate? Both the moderator and admin would have access to the account, and if there’s a way to view its transaction history, they could reimburse based on that. I don’t know enough about accounts to tell if that’s viable though.

I was under the impression an account is an account. Same as every other account and all with the same capabilities and restrictions (what restrictions?) as every other account. There are no “types” of account AFAIK.
Folks will most likely have several accounts and associated wallets for each network “persona” they want to create. An "official account which will most likely be in your real name and containing only the info you want to share with “official” bodies, a chat account for social media and friends and the secret account where your plans for world domination may be shared with the others in the “Hollowing out Volcanoes for Fun and Hegemony” group and so on as often as you want and as long as you can remember the passphrase/password combo for each, But all these accounts will essentially be the same in terms capabilities.

It still isn’t clear to me how PtD rewards might work for apps. Perhaps a free market of alt tokens is the way to handle this? I see this working for some large online games, but it would be a painful and cumbersome UI if each and every app has an associated token that must be purchased in order to perform actions with the app. I think it would be better if apps just receive a small commission on the PUTs. For example if you use a particular app to write data, then each PUT has a raw storage cost associated with it, and an additional premium in Safe token (X% of PUT cost) is payed to the app dev’s wallet. The network would need to enforce this so the app dev could feel ok about publishing the source code for audit. May auditable open source code receive a higher premium from the network? Yes please.

Would this be in addition to getting some rewards for Gets done on the APP code? Some Apps do not store, for instance a calculator will rarely store if ever. Obviously you could make it store stuff, and if only reward on Puts done then how many APPs will store data just to get rewards? Like store profile every time it closes, or even every 2 minutes. Yes people will migrate to the copycat APP that does not do the wasteful Puts.

The rewarding on reading the APP’s code is good and APP size gaming to get more rewards will also be bypassed for the copycat APP that does not bloat for no reason. Load times will be quicker for the lean APP.

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Could be. The GET on app code only happens once when installing on the client, no?

Isn’t this a feature instead of a bug? With reward on PUT, the client can directly audit the utility of the app. Apps that make useless PUTs are punished by the market and that’s ok?

I tend to agree that Safe Altcoins (salts) are good for the ecosystem, but its hard to see their utility outside of some specific use cases. How they can be used to support devs with app development is something I’d like to see some example scenarios of.

Why? It will occur every time you access the APP (like in the browser) from Safe.

To use apps anon you would not store them on your computer would you.

Now I am sure some app will install on your computer if you wish and maybe those will still come with a paid for licence code if you do install on computer. Maybe those apps will consider (if suitable to do so) an online paid for by PtD rewards and a paid for licence to install on computer.

That is one area where an installed app can be rewarded for puts done on the behalf of the user. I can imagine a word processing app could work faster if installed on pc and use safe for work files and users documents. This would allow them to not have paid for licence

It is a feature and why bloat will often not be a successful way to get more “income” as people will move to one that is not bloated and run more efficiently.

My thinking is that for network features they will be a burden, unnecessary and maybe even confusing for the user, app developer and maybe hinder things.

But for other purposes, like in game tokens, gift carding for stores, special projects etc etc they make a lot of sense if used properly.

For network rewards or resource purchasing then its double handling in my view and an unwanted overhead.

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This is what I was referring to.

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Thought so, but thought I say it all for everyone’s benefits

This would seem easier to manage from a general ptp framework. Whenever a chunk is retrieved via GET, be it app or content, the author/dev/provider receives a reward.

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Maybe and why PtP could be actually connected to PtD and provide the accessing the app side of things and gets/puts done by the App could reward the app for how useful (and utilised) it is and become the PtD.

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