About the new "guidelines"

no offence but… ???

said the amateur who had moderated a tiny forum for a couple of years to the professional who was managing one 10 times the size before safenet was any more than a twinkle in David’s eye. I wish I could explain everything that I know in a forum post that would convince you of it, but like many other things, understanding community development is esoteric and I can’t sit here for days trying to explain the psychology of a community, how it evolves and what things have positive and negative impacts and why. I am very frustrated from the effort I have already put in. many others do seem to both understand and agree, so maybe I’m not just crazy? Maybe if we had this convo in the main forum we’d find a lot more agreed and could see the implications for what I was suggesting.

it is a terrible shame that this forum will be limited by the capacity of the moderators to see and understand the psychological implications for something that to them seems small and unimportant. you don’t think it will work and you don’t think it matters… oh well ok then, obviously it doesn’t work and I must have imagined all those years of seeing it work on an ever-changing and enormous forum in far more challenging circumstances. and obviously it doesn’t matter, apart from to every member who’s spoken up on the matter in the threads you shift out of sight and the conversations you try to usher into PM.

Sadly not really good to go. Obviously this kind of thing doesn’t work if the moderation team are not 100% behind it and supportive/enthusiastic about the idea of the community helping to make the rules. There is no way I’d put myself up for being the middle man to refine debate to specific suggestions when I get the feeling the moderators would have the same closed attitude to change as they have shown through this discussion. I’d be putting myself in a terrible position there. No way I’d sign up for it now that I’ve seen in more detail just how stubborn the mod team can be.

This community is not made of the 2500 people who view a topic, this community is made of the tondas and the whiteoutmashups, the happybeings and the janitors, polpolrenes, riddims and the safety1sts.

I’m afraid you guys have made it quite clear - after being ushered into PM - that this will go nowhere because you simply disagree that sharing power is a good thing… you think you should have it all and you know what’s best. shock horror, you’re like everyone else on the planet. those with power always think that they know best and what they’re doing is in everyone’s best interests, it never is. we all think we’re right and we’re all victims of our limited knowledge and experience. shame though, this place ought to be better than that imo, you could be, but you lack the will to share, you want things the way you think they should be. Many of us disagree with you, even more would if you didn’t control the conversation so aggressively, some of us also have much more experience than you and it’s not wise to dismiss things simply because you don’t see or understand the benefits immediately.

happybeing, you are a good guy, but a good heart and big brain isn’t enough to solve this, it requires the willingness to compromise. this idea won’t work simply because none of you want it to work, you guys want a quiet, controlled and easy to manage forum. Sadly, that’s what you’re going to end up with imo :(. it might suit you much better and be easier to run, but it won’t suit as many of us and it will be much smaller than it could have been.

There’s a good reason police don’t get to write the laws… who would want to live in a place where they did? This can be an efficient business or it can be a place where equals come together and feel like a family. If you lean more towards one, you harm the other. I think your balance needs shifting.

As whiteoutmashups wisely says very early in this debate… ‘see you on the other side in a decentralised forum’




I’m afraid you guys have made it quite clear - after being ushered into PM - that this will go nowhere because you simply disagree that sharing power is a good thing… you think you should have it all and you know what’s best.

@Jabba to say this is to ignore or disbelieve what I’ve said, and what I’ve done for the nearly two years. I’ve not been involved in any PM with you so I’m not clear what you mean by “ushered”.

You’ve reached a conclusion and decided not to proceed for whatever reason. You’ve also said several times you’d rather not do this because of the work you know it would mean. Boy do I get that!

This decision your choice and I don’t think anyone should is think badly of you for that.

Mine is to stick with trying hard to make this work for the time being, and to be honest with you in my appraisal of your ideas - while also being willing to give you what you asked for to make it work.

I suggested you get some support and then I’d put it to the team. Until that happens, you won’t know the level of support from us - but asking for 100% it’s a bit high don’t you think! :wink:

There are ten of us, and I hope not all of them have been spending their weekend reading this topic! :slight_smile:

If you don’t want to do it, that’s fine man. But please don’t put responsibility for that choice onto us with such a prejudiced statement about a group of people, including myself, who’s views and intentions you are very wrong about.

If you change your mind, the offer is still open, but I’m away for a few days so just be aware I won’t be active on moderator tasks if at all possible, though I’ll try to keep up with the forum.

You came in to this post saying:

Than you proposed to remove all the forum guidelines and replace them with “one simple rule that gives the mods the freedom to make all of our lives easier and better…” you also said; “Do no harm” and make them accountable to it too? About moderation which means we have to share al actions we do as moderators. I already explained that this isn’t workable at all.

So, so far I don’t see any workable solution to a “problem” some people seem to have with this forum and it’s moderation. But let’s do some more reading.

In the last part of this topic you talked about your experience with moderation on your own forum. It looked to me like some sort of ranking model where people with the better karma’s where allowed as mods. You said:

So you made 6 people mods yourself? Without consensus from the community? With a “poll of no-confidence (and to us behind the scenes obvs).” As I asked before, show me a plugin/option for Discourse forum which we can use to do that. And another point to make here, mods are doing a lot of work behind the scenes, people don’t see that. So how can they vote on things they don’t see?

So we’ll go to the last part of this discussion to see what we have as practical proposals, because I’m still very curious.

Okay, a new proposal. Now we do need some guidelines! As I explained here in a reply, to me this seems like a false offer to users where everybody can make a reply and propose rules but still a few people decide what to implement. But it’s a proposal. I’m critical of it, and I have to work with these ideas so I hope you don’t mind I gave my opinion??

You have a lot of experience, that point is very clear. Not offended at all.

You’re not the only one that has been in communities ;-). So you really don’t need to sit for days to explain it to a group of people I think. And is it really so complicated?

Why the frustration? This is an open topic where everybody is free to express their ideas on moderation, guidelines and what more.

Terrible shame? Why? I really don’t get it. like I said before, most of the team here come from different communities. Why do you get the “psychological implications” and others don’t?

So I’m the “amateur” when it comes to moderation and you are the “professional” that comes up with several ideas. But when getting some critical comments from one person and some positive from another you drop off? Like seriously? If I learned anything at all with moderation and communities is that it’s all about consensus. All mods come up with ideas and a lot of them don’t make it. But dropping off isn’t a solution if you want to volunteer for a forum.

Where did anyone say that? And who was ushered into PM?? This is an open topic and I’m here, @happybeing just replied here, so did a lot of others.

Yes it is.

yes, instead of looking for constructive solutions you all (to a man) have simply dismissed the alternatives or their discussion as impossible/impractical.

I have never suggested you do the same thing. Essentially maidsafe have done the same thing by making you guys mods, it was a smart move. In my opinion the mistake was not keeping their own head of community to ensure the members were happy and heard (not listened to very politely and then told the idea won’t work). Others can see hw it would work and the value to it… TEAM_2E16, whisteoutmashups, tonda and others in this thread have voiced support for the idea and liked the posts in which it was suggested. Again, obviously many more would too if this were not in meta.

I’m fine with you all being critical of the idea, I’m not fine with the fact that just because you are all critical it can’t happen. That’s the problem with no feedback loop for us to be heard. There are no members here voicing support for your side of this debate. As far as I can see this is 100% of the mods vs 100% of the members who are aware of it. Show me the ordinary members saying they agree?

In order for any effective sharing of power to work you guys actually have to WANT to share it. This is the depressing thing. You clearly don’t want to. You don’t want to look for ways of doing it or solutions, you only suggest things won’t work and offer no alternatives effectively saying… tyranny is the only solution,m we’re an oligarchy, have your say and we’ll be polite, but if we disagree it isn’t happening.

The PM chat I had with another mod was not so open. I feel very much like the subject of a PR sweep to deal with and silence. It really doesn’t feel like you guys WANT to share. There is no positive energy coming from any of you about, no ideas or suggestions, no proactivity at all, just quiet, polite, dismissive responses in meta.

You have to see how frustrating this is from my perspective. How would you feel if you kept being dismissed by people who were dabbling in something you had studied and practiced in professional context for a very long time? Trust me, it would irk you to have people keep repeating that it won’t work or it won’t make a difference. I apologise for letting my ego get the better of me. I have come across as arrogant and pathetic but I’ve been driven to it by the subtle arrogance of mods not really listening, or accepting the fact that if they don’t like my suggestion they need to find another solution to the problems, not pretend they don’t exist or that they are not a problem… SHAREDOWNERSHIP/ACCOUNTABILITY-FEEDBACKLOOP/COMMUNITYINPUT

Since you ask Melvin did. It was not a productive or reasonable conversation, it was the same one I’ve had with each of you, although a little more acerbic by the end. He too does not think anything he doesn’t understand or see the value in should be entertained. Like the rest of you, he thinks he should be judge of what will work and what won’t and it must be carefully explained to him first (in private apparently) or in his words 'if that’s it then we’re done here". Then he got very upset with me pointing out that was indeed a fascist statement “authoritarian, intolerant views or practices, anti-democratic” He got rather upset, took it personally and called me ignorant etc.

Now I’m totally disillusioned and disheartened. I’ll be safenet4ever, but safeforum is not the place for me. It’s fine. You guys are just doing what everyone else does. I just hoped for more from you. It so regressive for such a progressive technology. I train my dog with positive reinforcement, I don’t hit him with a stick, even though both ways work and most people do shout at and hit their dogs to ‘train’ them. Obv the dog analogy only goes so far, but you get my drift, moving things to meta and banning people is using the stick instead of working on behaviours in a fun way together to build our bonds.

Just get behind the idea of solving the problem and sharing ownership instead of being defeatest about it. It will never be solved unless you WANT to solve it and really try… with some enthusiasm for it! :wink:

How would I get support in meta? No one looks in here.

Your motives are good and you think you’re doing what’s best, I’m not calling that into question, just the fact that you might not be right. Maybe this place shouldn’t be family friendly, maybe this place should have some of the guidelines changed and the spirit of them better clarified for consistent application?

The point is, I would do it in the right atmosphere… one where you guys wanted change, but you don’t really. If you did you would be actively pursuing change without needing to be prompted to it. Because you don’t it’s impossible to do. The mods would need to accept what the community wanted, you won’t… as poly said, you’ll want to make the final decision and I suspect you have a different vision to many of us, so the format I’ve described probably won’t work here like it did for me - I genuinely wanted the community to have whatever they wanted and I fought the corporate battle on their behalf to have more freedom not less etc, even though it wasn’t popular… We boiled our rules down to spam removal and the three Rs… racism/rude&aggressive/rigtards. The community chose those rules… then they stuck to them or pounced on others that didn’t… that’s because they owned the rules, they were their rules and they’d chosen them!

Yeah, like a group of mods attacking a user from different points in both public and PM and making all these long replies in the hope to silence everybody. And all mods take part in this.

Yeah, let’s throw in tyranny. Why not? It’s a community forum.

Like 11 active forum members that have put hours and hours in this forum. Deleting spam, welcoming new members, writing technical topics, proposals, forum updates, opening up a lot of categories for all to welcome almost all topics and loads more. But there is no positive energy coming from us? Not any??

Ohw, there you were before. I’m a bit confused now to be honest.

Ohw, we had tyranny, now let’s add fascism. Why not. It’s a community forum.

Seriously @Jabba I made a lot of replies here, and others did as well. Why would we do that? To shut you off? We’re the ones that need to work with these guidelines. And we already took a lot of ideas from people here on the forum. But we can’t please everybody. And when new ideas come up we always take them seriously. I even wrote a proposal with @Team_2E16 together. And all these strong terms about no positive energy coming out of any of us don’t make your argument any stronger. Same for tyranny, fascism, and all other awful stuff. We’re talking about a community forum here. This place should be fun.

In meta!!!

No positive energy about sharing power no, none at all, not one split second of it from any of you. About everything else for sure, but I’m not accusing you of that? You guys are so quick to take things personally and not see them for what they are.

Are you? why? I stick by that.And it would be worse without you too. That doesn’t mean that what you’re both doing right here and now is really in the best interests of the community.

Tyranny is mis-rule without accountability… that is exactly what this discussion is about. Fascism, is just a right-wing political ideology that is authoritarian and not receptive to democratic consensus. I’m not calling you Nazis, I’m saying your attitudes are dangerously close to that fascist ideology. Can you not see what this feels like from the outside? ‘Yeah we’ll listen, but we dont really give a damn what you say, we’ll just poo poo it and move it so no one can see it.’ There you go, community… :confused: Yeah, great, I really feel like this is MY community too.

You’re right though, enough is enough. everyone wasted enough time on this, there’s no budging you lot really, for all your talk of wanting change, you don’t really want it and as they say, you can lead a horse to water…

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Okay, end of discussion for me. If you can’t leave out these terms I’m done here.

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Why, because you equate the term fascism with nazis instead of appreciating what facism and oligarchy actually are (behaviours and systems of power) and why people dont like them…

weak dude.

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Cmon have some Respect. Get your points across without insulting people.

Everyone’s trying to make it work, even if it’s not always perfect



Attacking others’ attitudes (moderators included) and putting them onto the political spectrum is not just aggressive, it is also not constructive. @polpolrene did admit that there were several proposals that you spelled out for us, unfortunately, it seems to have been flooded by the mass of posts in this topic.

If I may, I would ask you to create a bullet-point list of the proposals that you mentioned in this thread. I have asked the moderators to do the same. Once we have these two lists, I would be happy to go down them and compare them point by point - even dedicating entire threads to one topic. This is what I’ve chosen to do in order to lead us out of this endless back and forth posts between yourself and my fellow mods. And as we can all see, that approach has gotten us nothing but grief.

Could not sleep and just finished reading all the posts here on my phone and grief is an understatement. My heart is broken. :sob:

You guys are my second family and I don’t want to see us fall apart. @Team_2E16 has already left even though I begged him not to.

Are you next @tonda, @janitor, @whiteoutmashups, @Al_Kafir? Heaven forbid! . Pleeeease, let’s fix this.

@jabba you have my support.:kissing_heart:

Regulars obviously care the most about this forum and as @Blindsite2k, pointed out, I agree that regulars should have more power. Our community is about to explode and as @happybeing pointed out we are at a crossroad and very vulnerable.

Therefore, I propose we invoke thru @ all the regulars of this forum onto a new thread in Meta to explore jabba’s proposal of shared ownership. If and when we get enough additional support from the regulars then I hope that the @moderators will also do their part and garner some more enthusiasm for jabba’s idea because currently there does seem to be very little.

Others are welcomed to join this open discussion but many are content with the way things are now anyway and probably won’t bother. :wink: They can just reap the benefits of when we make things better. :slight_smile:

We can do this!

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Great to see your excitement @Safety1st. I always like your posts. I hope you don’t mind that I stopped interacting with people that say that my attitude is “dangerously close to that fascist ideology” and folks who literally call us mods a bunch of nazi’s over PM. That language and these accusations are so brutal that I don’t think any good conversation can come out of it.

@whiteoutmashups came up with a proposal here and I still hope he puts it to @ moderators. He can be critical of moderation but he’s always a gentlemen in discussions. Same for @Team_2E16 with who’m I wrote a proposal.

Meta is always open for good ideas, just write a proposal and put it up. Everybody is free to do that. But when someone accuses me/mods of thoughts that belong to very brutal regimes I no longer interact with these people. This is a community forum that should be fun for everybody. I’m not here to get compared to any brutal regime from history.


I don’t mind and I totally understand.

With that said, let me share a revelation I had not too long ago and just to forewarn anyone else reading, it is religiously based.

A scripture that bothered me a lot for a while is to “turn the other cheek”. Now I realize that the reason it bothered me so much is because I was interpreting it from how it was taught to me thru an oppressive authoritarian church. My spirit was telling me that when attacked it is perfectly natural and moral to stand and fight or take flight. I see both of these perfectly natural reactions happening in this post.

However, after being introduced to NVC by jabba, I soon realized why there was so much conflict within me concerning this scripture. This scripture does not encourage continual abuse and submission to attack out of “love” at all. This is the warped love many of us have become accustomed to. What it encourages is for us to grow up enough so that no flaming arrows penetrate our shield. Insults fall by the waste side where they belong. In this case insults and criticism may continue perpetually with no effect and no victims. Our goal is to become bigger then our attackers so that they become like a small gnat we see but we don’t feel their bit.

I am a christian, black, female, nontechnical person and would not remain in the cryptocurrency world if I was easily insulted based on my religion, race, gender or technical illiteracy. I have been able to turn the other cheek successfully in this regard.

So my question to you dearest @polpolrene (one of my favorite mods) is are you a Nazi? If not then turn the other cheek. If you are unable to turn the other cheek does this mean that you are a Nazi? No! All it means is that you are a human with all the rights there in to fight or flight in an attack.

Edit: Only you will ever know what triggered your response. Try to look at your natural and very appropriate response as a gift / blessing in disguise from your attacker of an exposed vulnerability in your shield that you now have an opportunity to patch up and strengthen so that future attacks will be less and less hurtful to you. The attacks will always come but it’s how they are received that counts the most. After all we can only change ourselves and no one else right? Oh heck, let me give it a try. @jabba, please stop comparing @polpolrene’s actions to Nazi fascism because it obviously hurts him when you do that even though I know this is not your intentions. Also, if he’s a Nazi, I must be Hitler himself considering all the jackal I speak to my children. :wink: Thank you.


Attack is the best form of defense eh?

The reason people get defensive when you accuse them of fascist behaviours is because fascism implies an intolerant, right-wing and anti-democratic position. From my perspective it is ruder to be guilty of those attributes than it is to point them out for what they are.

I wonder how any of you would react to being taken into private chat and told very politely that if you can’t do better that to suggest using a main forum thread for discussion, polling and debate to either write, or at least be able to change the current rules, then I’m afraid ‘we’re done here’. I should imagine many of you would see the frustration I feel and call it out for what it is… an intolerant, right-wing (elitist), closed and anti-democratic attitude (fascist). Other mods may have been more subtle in their approach, but the attitude is unanimous, mods don’t see a need for change because they don’t feel at all disenfranchised themselves… quelle surprise?

What do other forums do? Well, that depends. A forum that’s owned by a business is run by and for that business. That’s fine. We can all get behind that, it’s just how the world works and if we like what the business does we are happy to use their forum. However, that’s not the case here is it!? This forum isn’t run by Maidsafe, nor is it run by the community. This forum is run by happybeing, polpol, neo, melvin, smacz etc. It’s their forum in every literal and psychological sense of the word ‘theirs’. The community have no real say. Yes obviously we’ll be heard. You’re all very reasonable and polite and you have the best interests of maidsafe at heart. Sadly that’s not enough because you are all also just people, like us. What you unanimously agree is in the best interests of the forum might not actually be right. That scares you a little bit because you own it and you have to run it. You don’t want the members coming along and turning the forum into something you guys don’t think it should be. That’s completely understandable, but it may not be in the best interest of the community. There is a big difference between managing a forum and managing a community and the interests of the two DO conflict with one another. You are focused on managing the forum, but your systems and attitude to change will kill the community feel over time - it already has for some of us.

You guys keep asking for detailed proposals and nailed-down suggestions for something that ought to be very simple and organic and does not need to be bullet-proof, nor should it be decided in detail by one person. If you’d written those rules out in the open and let everyone have their ‘input’ (that’s not just letting them speak, it’s doing things they want that you may disagree with aka compromise) then we wouldn’t be here right now. What you mods do is either extremely polite refusal, disinterest, or reluctant submission while making it clear you won’t support it and don’t agree with the philosophy beind it; which is what has frustrated every member who’s tried to raise the issue of ownership.

How you do it depends on what you are willing to do. What do I think you should do? I think you should go the whole hog and scrap the rules in favour of an open pinned thread for everyone to write them together. Various different people can try to take the lead at different times and for different rules. Some will find conflict and we can use various things like polls to try to resolve that (like I said, it doesn’t need to be bullet-proof). It works in practice and is very simple as long as a few people help guide and refocus the discussion from time to time.

If I were you I would also then change your mod system to automatically add any user who gets to a certain post count… any poster who’s done many thousands of posts obviously has the site’s best interests at heart and through this thread they will be able to understand the spirit and letter of whatever rule/s we as a community decide we really need. You can keep one happybeing or polpol with overarching power that they never use (or twice a year kind of thing) and they can remove editing rights from anyone who is abusing them - as long as he opens that decision up to the community before or after to ensure the majority do agree.

I wonder what arguments people will try to level against that idea lol? Give women the vote? Give the slaves freedom? Bah, it’d be chaos! The plebs can’t possibly have control over this stuff. How would I stop the regular poster who swore or did something I thought was wrong if they all became mods? Madness, I tell you, the people can’t rule themselves!

If you did either or both of these two things you would no longer be under attack, nor could you be ever again really. Much like the police who are able to say ‘I don’t write the laws’ you will have deniability and you can point them to the right place to vent or change the rule they don’t like. Once there is can be handled by the whole community, so you mods won’t have to do as much work defending yourselves. You could choose not be in any position of power ‘over’ the community, you would be part of it instead, as would we all, so psychologically these relationships would change for the better. There are also numerous other advantages like consistency through open discussion and increased popularity (if you give ‘most’ of the people what they want then you are making the popular choices and will attract more people).

Now cue the slue of mods saying they don’t understand the mechanics of how it would work, or that polling doesn’t work, or that whatever else is silly because… not one of you will do what you should have done from the beginning to stop this ridiculous discussion and say, ok yes you’re right. we do need to find a way to share ownership, but in these unique circumstances I think this might work better to try this and this… or we could try this… or how about we just put the thread up to see where it goes and how everyone does respond to being treated like adults. You know what, I bet they’ll start behaving more like them.

If you tell people your word is final and you have to be convinced of something before it can happen you are making them into a petulant child when they resist your paternal attitude.

I keep promising myself I won’t post again, but this time I mean it. Nothing here is going to change it seems, this is a forum run by the mods, for the mods… not by or for the community, and not by or for maidsafe. Until that changes and it better reflects the will of all the people who use it, or the business we all believe in and want to support (maidsafe) I have no desire to contribute to it… nor do others I’ve spoken to in PM who can’t be bothered getting involved.

I have not heard 1 ordinary member say they agree with the power structure as it stands atm, but I have heard half a dozen or more members say they disagree with it and dislike it.

You are legislators, police, judge and jury, yet you are not maidsafe, you are just long term members who have given a lot of work, time and effort to this forum, and now feel like it’s yours. You’ve formed a clique that is of one mind… a different mind to the rest of the forum imo. That will not change as you grow, it will get worse and you will become less and less representative of the community.

Anyhoo, i’m unfollowing threads etc, I don’t want to be drawn back into this now. It’s no big deal, we will have a better version on decorum. I cared about the forum, I wanted it to do well, now I don’t really care and I want the next incarnation to do better.

No worries, nothing personal against anyone, but if I see dominion I call it out for what it is. You are not the business owners, you are just the oligarchs of the forum and you work very hard to make it the way you think it should be.


I never called Pol a Nazi, I asked Melvin to rexamine his comment ‘if that’s it then we’re done here’ in the context that it was a fascist leaning statement… and purely because the mods keep banging on about they get called nazis all the time. It was intended to be informative, not insulting. None of the mods are like Nazis. It would be ridiculous to say that. That’s why they’ve all jumped on it and pretended they’re offended that I’ve called them Nazis when I did not. What they have done is implement an oligarchy with no room for effective feedback from the bottom up. What I have done is call it out.


I know jabba and I agree with you 100% and appreciate you highlighting it. It just seems that the words Nazi and fascism are triggering projected reactions and miscommunication despite your good intentions.


I just asked Melvin if he agreed that it sounded a bit fascist? That’s where all this came from.

So, in his and other mods eyes, it’s fine for him to dismiss me despite the fact I know a lot more about this stuff than him, but it’s totally out of order for me to ask him if he thinks that sounds fascist…? I was the one with cause to be offended imo, but at that point of course I’ve called him a ‘Nazi’ in his mind so now he thinks he has the moral high ground, can act all offended and go and tell all the mods that I’m so unreasonable I’m calling him a Nazi. It’s all so childish. Call me a Nazi, see if I care, I’m Jewish. I’m sure I should care a lot more than most of you. Ridiculous stuff.

I love you Safety1st and you’ve definitely learned and taken on more than me from NVC in very little time, but really, the whole thing is so silly. All from asking someone if their (to my eyes) horrible and aggressive statement might be considered fascist, no matter how polite and nice they might pretend to be with words that surround it, underneath you discover their real attitude by analysing their actions rather than their words… no compliance, no effort to change, no effort to enact anything players want that they disagree with.

You’re fighting a losing battle if you want to fix this one imo safety1st. It’s just exhausting for everyone and pointless.

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I love that! Gives a glimpse of what is possible.

I love you too jabba but I will go down with this ship. And I won’t put my hands up and surrender. There will be no white flag above my door. I’m in love and always will be.