About the new "guidelines"

Now that’s what I’m talking about… feel the love brother :kissing_heart:

Ha, I’m more of a hypocrite than anyone… you should see me when I get in a rage. My giraffe ears are only any use in other people’s conversations sadly… I have way too many issues with my ego and my need to feel liked, respected etc.

Your work/sacrifices are greatly appreciated and I think many of us share the same sentiment… try to leave the world a better place for you having been there etc… what dream is more worth championing than safenet?

I’m not sure this is really true, I think it’s more just that people look for someone to blame and whoever they see around the source they focus their malcontent at. It was very unfortunate that it got personal and I know you know that even the people who get angry don’t really mean what they say, even though it hurts all the same. You’re a legend and this place would be chaos without you and the rest of the mods. You do a great job, this is just a complex problem with passionate people and strong opinions.

I remain ever the optimist about technology and, more importantly, new systems & processes that might help guide us to better practices. :wink:

One thing’s for sure, SAFE is the coolest idea I’ve ever heard of. It just has so much going for it. I’m happy to be here at the start of something that could be so great and I’m very proud to call all of the members of this community my friends (regardless of how they feel lol) - you are all unique, brilliant, inspiring and interesting! And you are a pillar of strength for this place happybeing!

Delivery driver just dropped off a load of pine bark for mulching my blueberries… he left in a hurry to buy some maids. /obsessed #ihaveaproblem

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Lol. If you’re serious man, there is still hope :wink:

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100% serious, not the first time either… no idea how many of them actually buy, but it’s amazing how many seem to leave infected with enthusiasm. I tell everyone I meet in basically any circumstances that might give me 5 minutes where I have them cornered and they can’t escape. I’m like SAFE’s annoying Jehovah’s witness. It’s not the softest conversation starter, but I didn’t get my nickname from starwars. I’m happy to talk at people so they have no choice but to listen to me ;).

Door-to-door with print outs of the SAFE wiki anyone? lolz

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My man @Jabba helped to clarify so many of the underlying points of my arguments that I see only two or so roads left to traverse. Thank you for helping to spare my slow typing achy fingers the unusually amplified tactility of every key stroke. Seriously, a fruit fly would feel like a small bird landing on my skin. The 3 mile round trip (walking) to pick up diapers from BJ’s wholesale club was no bueno. It seems I underestimated that pesky virus. After walking the first ten blocks lets just say anyone behind me had their appetites ruined. After twenty or so blocks I looked drunk (which is fine by me). By the time I reached BJ’s, the woman I asked to borrow her membership card seemed quite concerned. She muttered something in Spanish to the effect of - what’s wrong with this guy. I didn’t touch her card so I doubt she’ll get sick. That would suck.

Instead of the broad breach for which one strand of the many strings of my heart has been tugged by your contention, I propose a more narrowed display. Lets see if even a few snippets can escape the darkness of the backroom. I’ll present them to you and the other mods in a PM. I’ll be happy if it makes any difference trying it this way.
Self righteousness by definition is ones personal beliefs of acceptability. It was emotionally charged on my part but I meant it less as an insult and more as a highlight of motive.

I agree, complete transparency is impracticable, but my most recent proposal on the matter provides fairness with little overhead. Banning a human should come with accountability. Short biweekly or monthly moderation reports should suffice.

I know that I can at times seem aggressive and short tempered. Before I became aware of the world outside my self repressive bubble, I was not a very nice person. Early social conditioning bred what some would consider an unsavory character to say the least. I’ve seen and done some very reprehensible things in my youth. My parents were morally bankrupt and my local peer group had similar influences. Strength, dominance, and wealth were the only things we were taught to believe mattered. The resulting demeanor made walking away from that life even more difficult. Few could accept or tolerate a thug. Without much formal education It came as no surprise that any commentary on my part would be overlooked by those in a position of power.

It wasn’t until I started challenging convention with fairly strong arguments that local community leaders started to take me seriously. My participation is minimal and only occurs when I perceive an impending regression. Much in the same way I do things here. This as a result of my unusual character and awareness of it’s caustic nature. I’ve made adjustments over the years but there are some compromises that would slowly diminish the part of the spectrum that has made me so widely relateable IMO. From the fine art connoisseur and budding scientist to one struggling from the history of an impoverished crack addicted parent whose influence and poor guidance facilitated a proclivity for violence/crime/hatred.

When I first stepped up to the world of logic and intelligence in search of a new home, most that were then touted as its representatives seemed fake and unwelcoming. No room was made available for those whose mannerisms fell short of the pre established norm. Understanding various sciences was not enough for them to look past my appearance and behavioral characteristics. My choice then was to force my way in, rattle cages, and challenge everything and everyone! I refused to believe that my past would invalidate me forever. For nearly half a decade I interjected, questioned, and debated all those who would otherwise not have me. In that time I’ve made a great many friends and enemies. Shutting down pretentious bullsnit and exalting the opposite. From those experiences I’ve learned that insecurities however derived are at root of our social disconnect. Classes are established to envelope and buffer us in a top down hierarchical fashion. With the intent to reduce the contamination of the pool of beliefs held by each group. Group think and social drones being my new targets after having first attacked my ego. Not even I’m immune to myself. To this day I fight, but with a little more grace. :wink:

To my amazement, my arrival here exposed me to a motley bunch of free and very smart minds. Sharing many of the same beliefs, interests, and willingness to expand beyond their state. Those who didn’t agree with the status quo would hesitate little to stand and make their voices heard even if it meant going outside the bounds of the topic or social acceptance. I related to @Al_Kafir s unapologetic and humorous banter, @janitor s stead fast participation in topics he wasn’t completely clear on overlaid with unwelcome sarcasm, @whiteoutmashups s cheerful and blindingly optimistic presence, @blindsite s promotion of lateral thinking in his huge posts that detailed some of his ideals, @happybeing s subtle spirituality seemingly driven by an innate desire to achieve nirvana, @dirvine s mad scientist resolve with a humble overtone, @warren s strong dissent from anything displaying even a hint of corruption, @dyamaka s R&D approach to everything under the sun, and @polpolrene down to earth but passionate attitude clearly reflective of his influences. His profile picture matches him perfectly. Every time I read his posts I can hear Mr. Miyagi’s voice from karate kid.

Anything that poses a threat to this will have me at the ready. This tight knit diversity of people facilitated by the previous forum style was not easy for me to find. @jabba s peer moderation concept is the best means of preserving the relaxed playful and unintimidating tone of this forum. Once my head clears I’ll throw a few more suggestions into the arena. Until then I ask that the mods kick around some of the previous ideas. Oh and keep in mind that while it seems only a few disagree with the new guidelines based on the number of members that have engaged this topic directly, there are likely those who are either lurking or rather not enter the ring for reasons not entirely known. We might represent more of the population here than you know.

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Yes, we definitely do - the mods certainly don’t have the 99% support they claim…it’s propaganda really. Anyway, you are basically wasting your time trying to get mods to do anything whatsoever to address centralisation, transparency or accountability to the community issues. I know because I started a number of threads in all these areas, asking mods if they have any ideas to improve any of these areas - not one single mod out of the vast army could propose anything at all.
This clearly demonstrates a total lack of even looking at solutions more consistent with the whole Maidsafe thing.
If you mention making it more democratic, transparent, de-centralised or accountable, then they say they can’t think of anything - even though most are the app devs finding solutions to exactly all these issues!..lol
The problem is that what was intended as a “nationalised” (community run) forum has been privatised. We keep getting all these “updates” about new laws being introduced, intended to justify their actions to the community - why? They are not accountable to the community, so its just for show.
The community has been taken for a ride I think and now the private owners/mods have a captive audience…its not going to be easy to migrate to another more community involving forum now, however this IS the only long term option.
The mods should be hired and serve the community, not the community serve the private interests of the select few. I see this whole thing as a massive hypocritical, authoritarian embarassment to the community/project.
Anyway, we’ll get there in the end…onwards and upwards and we can hopefully move on in the future in another forum. Until then, I suppose we can only continue to campaign and fight the good fight. :smile:

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Hi @Al_Kafir, seeing you are here I am trying to find where any mod did this

I cannot find that in the new guidelines and cannot see where a mod said this was the case for the forum. Because I want to fix this right up, seeing as meta is here to discuss moderation decisions. (PMs are available too)

Can you point me to where this was said, please.

Thanks.

I am a little saddened to see you saying we have not considered other options and tarred the mods as some sort of separate group to the community. I honestly thought we were a part of the community and "not the community serve the private interests of the select few.[mods] I am sure if you read a few recent posts/topics in meta you can see a few discussions about how we can do things better/be more transparent considering the limitations of the forum software and the requirements to keep private-messages private.

I am still wondering if you can help by suggesting a realistic proposal we can present to the community that would help in this area. Criticisms of the moderation limitations of the forum and the mods isn’t great for a proposal, but rather a positive way forward that can be implemented, prior to SAFE forums.

Honestly I thought the forum was more like @dirvine 's view, and while the moderation system & limitations of discorse is not perfect, I thought it was reasonable. Which doesn’t mean I am not on the outlook for reasonable and feasible technically solutions to the shortcomings.

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Sounds like you’re ready to go to New Hampshire. Snowden was present at that lastest Liberty Forum that they did. Come to think of it, wasn’t @ioptio representin’? With Brian Sovryn? (does he have a username here?) Her talks aren’t even linked to on her homepage! For shame!

@Al_Kafir, nobody here can claim majority rule over the 1%, much less the 49%. There are rules, and we have rules. We’re the community here. The community that brought into being our awesome wiki. As well as our Intro Video - @ioptio there needs to be more that just a youtube channel of us, right?

In this community we condone ediquette and protocol. @Blindsite2k made his own site with his own rules once upon a time. Rules like “don’t infiltrate the platform,” probably something like “no cp pls” - if he was smart. Thing is, he wasn’t limiting your freedom of speech, but visiting his location in cyberspace, you were a guest. And appropriate guests follow the appropriate rules. Turns out he did have a rules page. Oh yes, he had rules too, that’s how it works.

His site was his location that he homesteaded. This is ours.

The mods are the ones who direct the infrastructure here too. I don’t think that’s public, but we’re constantly looking at network usage, population and other statistics. These are the guys who have hosted it on three different locations. I mean, they lost @janitor’s icon, but they did what they could. And a good job at that. And like I said before, the wiki and all the other sites aren’t provided magically either.

Maidsafe (the company) transfers money to these guys for crying out loud. That’s a lot of responsibility. They’ve homesteaded the place I’ll say. They’ve built it up. Sure they have a vision, we all have visions. But we’re here to discuss this vision. If you can’t handle that then I’m sure that @Blindsite2k has the template for his forum laying around someplace. Homestead your place in this net. You and I both know that we’ll see each other in the next. For now, this is our homesteaded community.


P.S. To all users,

I never looked for the list of the moderators before I myself was one. I never really came across it either. Making lists like these (and others - say stats and otherwise) public but moreso obvious is a very good way to enhance what is idolized in the word Transparency. Me, I prefer “Openness”. So let’s start with the list of mods, shall we?

https://safenetforum.org/about

And for giggles, let’s throw in the guidelines as well:

https://safenetforum.org/guidelines

I’m feeling generous, so why don’t you have some amazing links too - community curated by @frabrunelle: https://safenetwork.org/

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Uh ohhhhhhh! I knew the genitalia would eventually rear its ugly head… Get it!? :grinning: Knowing your tendency to hold grudges makes me wary of your new position. Couple that with your sarcasm and my hair trigger. The result… is to be seen.

Your point above eluded me. Was it to tell me that all places have their rules? That this job is tough? We should be more appreciative? That others can make their own forum? High tail it and run? Oh please my new moderator lord, please share with me your giggles… :weary:

I’m both literally sick and tired. Nearly 3AM in my time zone and now a new pain in my ass in addition to my week long ailment. My tolerance for patronizing is now very low. Good night dick van dyke. My dear salesman. :relieved:

Time to wave the wand and delete…

Hmmm, I wonder. Are PM’s readable by mods? Or are they encrypted? With all of this talk about privacy breach, It would be both hypocritical and disturbing if PM’s were trivially viewable by mods. I get that with enough effort it is likely possible, but being easily viewable by default would likely not be well received.

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The only PM’s moderators can read are those which we are invited to. That is being one of the people its addressed to, or we created the PM.

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@Tonda @neo

Any person with admin (different from moderator) privileges in Discourse (and indeed any other forum, practically) has access to the database, and so could, if they wished, query that database for any contents that they wished to, including PM’s.

It was, some years ago, possible via Discourse for a moderator to directly access a user’s PMs through the Discourse software, but this has been changed https://meta.discourse.org/t/permission-changes-moderators-have-less/12522. I’m assuming that this forum runs an identical version of Discourse as the one referenced.

Only some mods have admin privileges. And of course, just because they could, doesn’t mean that they would.

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Only one Admin used to be a Mod and that was @frabrunelle. But now no admin is a moderator, and @Tonda was talking about the moderators.

@frabrunelle, is the only admin who was a mod and is just a community member who also happens to handle the technical side of hosting, domain name admin. @ioptio is from Maidsfe and is the “backup” admin and David was ?the original? Admin and doesn’t seem to be involved mich anymore.

So in answer to @Tonda, NO moderator has any access to PMs that the moderator was not invited to or created.

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He @Al_Kafir can you show me one democratic forum in the cryptospace? Or just on forum in any space where the mods are “hired” by the users? Or a forum where they vote for what is allowed on the frontpage? Really love to see your links. Shouldn’t be that hard, because if we are an “authoritarian embarrassment” to the community you definitely know some better forums. Now come up with these links, I love to see them.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear when I wrote this:

I meant this in the general sense (forums in general), not as a comment on the state of affairs here. Thanks for the clarification, though.

My comment highlights three implications:

  1. We’re posting on a privately-run forum. Any admin of any forum can read PMs that aren’t encrypted. The only surefire way (absent SAFE) to encrypt your message to prevent reading would be for the sender and recipient to use something like end-to-end encryption (eg GPG). Posting on someone’s forum (PM or otherwise), for now, means that someone, somewhere, can read your messages. I’m sure there are possible exceptions to this in this day and age of rapidly developing solutions, but as far as I’m concerned, if you assume there is any privacy on the current internet, why would we need SAFE? :slight_smile:
  2. Moderators are distinct from administrators. Only admins can read the database. Moderators if they have admin privileges. I made the distinction to show that we can all probably trust that you mods can’t read the PMs. Until today, I assumed only @frabrunelle had admin access, and still thought he(?) was a mod.
  3. A final implicit position of mine is that, frankly, the moderators could probably be trusted with this responsibility anyway. I certainly understand why people wouldn’t want it, and I don’t either, but I’ve seen enough good-faith moves here on the part of the mods that I think this would cross the line for them. Regardless of how I see some other issues, I can’t say I’ve seen any evidence that mods here would stoop so low, even if they did have the ability.
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Thanks for the clarification. And agree

For me I do NOT want that ability.

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I’ve seen this all before. It’s like I said, if you don’t give the community any ownership then it feels like a paternal relationship and that kind of balance of power eventually creates division, cliques and argument - all things anti-community basically.

Ok, so please bear in mind I’ve never coded anything in my life and I don’t really understand the open-source process.

However, the wonderful Mr Shirky suggests ‘distributed version control’ might be a good way to decentralise the legislative process.

Do you think we might solve the problem if we give the community some kind of input in the rules? Some say over the boundaries they disagree with, or would like discussed and defined more clearly so as so ensure we don’t stifle the relaxed and friendly atmosphere?

Perhaps DVC would create too much work, but you could still open them up for a debate thread, so those with concerns can be heard and they don’t feel that they’ve had no say.

Really, it’s up to you guys, but the way I see it you have two choices here. Either you ignore the malcontent - don’t forget the old adage, ‘for every customer who tells you something there were another 50 who thought it but didn’t tell you’. :confused: Or you can try to find some way to give the community a sense of ownership of the rules by having a say in what they are or how they are prosecuted.

The problem here is not really the existence of rules or the kind of moderation this forum receives imo. I’m sure the rules are probably fine and the moderation has always seemed first class to me. The problem seems to me to be purely that the community want to own them in some way and not to have a paternal relationship created from one that was so inspiringly horizontal before. It’s not that you mods have done anything wrong other than not give the community a sense of ownership.

There must be a way to do this without a huge effort being placed on already overstretched mods? We really need to diffuse this argument asap imo.

Come on folks, let’s not create a situation where the power dynamic means we’re treated more like kids… because then we behave more like kids :confused:

This is not a normal forum. I think you would be wise to revisit the idea of shared ownership of some kind or accountability/empowerment for the community. It seems trivial, it doesn’t seem necessary… and yet the power dynamic does have a big impact on social development, even when it is used wisely and rationally.

Come on guys, let’s be a team again and solve it together… insults live out there in the world forever once you voice them, let’s keep our tempers cool and work together to solve it instead of taking jabs at each other.

xx

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@Jabba These discussions are endless, and that’s why we are where we are. You are relatively new to them, so if you and a group want to spend time working out a practical solution that properly addresses the concerns of everyone, including finding a group of dedicated community volunteers who will do the heavy lifting, please do.

Personally I’m exhausted by all this, so my input will be reduced - perhaps that will make it easier. But above we can see the personal animosity that means we have individuals with personal grudges and issues, and who evidently find it very hard to put those aside and be constructive.

Maybe your giraffe ears can be cloned? :slight_smile: let’s send everyone on an NVC course before they can post in Meta and have a seat at the community table. :wink: Only half joking - so long as there is a completely open door to these discussions, and any forum moderation process, the processes become vulnerable to disruption by one or two vocal individuals, deliberate or unconscious.

James, I respect your modesty about those fine ears, but your talent is impossible to miss. I hope everyone can see that or be reached by it. It just might be the key, but can you, or do you want to, give that much of yourself here? It’s a big ask, and a serious question. If not you, then who? I can’t do it - I see that now though I have tried, and I’m very sad to be seen and treated so negatively by those I’ve been unable to relate well enough to, and who do not see me.

To bring this kind of change we will need some with commitment, staying power and endurance. Others come and go, dip in loudly when they have a personal bug bear or some free time, but that’s a luxury and no way to build something that can last. So we need people with staying power to run their whole “leg” before handing over the baton. We have a fine group of those in the mod team, and I hope some in the community who might be willing to step up and work in the same dedicated way, but we, or rather they (because I’m stepping back), need to find a way out of this snarky, demonising, and disrespectful (insulting really) dialogue. You offer us an example that gives me hope, but I return to my question above.

We recently had someone suggest having a trusted person to help resolve disputes, but they didn’t want to do that work themselves, and nobody else did either. :frowning2:

We had someone else (a respected long term community member) who wanted moderator privileges so they could investigate community members and flush out saboteurs. I couldn’t see what it could possibly achieve, and said we’d have to be transparent about it with the community. They saw my questions as some kind of personal attack and refused to discuss it further. I’m a vitriolic exit from the discussion they revealed that they’ve been very unhappy about us as moderators without me being aware of it. :disappointed_relieved:

(So yes of course @Tonda, you @Al_Kafir, @whiteoutmashups @Warren and others speak when others remain silent. But unless they speak, you don’t know whether you speak for them or not. I know some people won’t speak up in these situations - I was one of those for most of my life, so I know that happens and how hard it can be to be self censoring through fear. One of the most infuriating things for me though was when someone thought they were speaking for me, and put me in the awful position of being forced either to speak my truth when I didn’t want to, or let their assumptions stand, as if it was what I had said. Sometimes of course they were right, but we don’t know. That’s my point, and is why I’ve encouraged those who are dismayed to come up with clear, solid proposals and put them to a vote. That hasn’t happened on these issues, but it seemed like it might be a way through this problem. It hasn’t been. Now, I’m not sure if we can trust the outcomes until the technology allows, but that’s a moot point until members of the community are willing to create proposals detailed enough to be voted on.)

So I have tried to do my bit but was not up to this part of the task: creating a workable, trusted solution that was better than what’s used on every comparable forum (AFAIK) :wink: In spite of that, I think the community is really about the people who are attracted to SAFEnetwork, so the optimist in me believes the rules and process will not alter what we have here to a significant extent. I think the changing demographic that arises from mass awareness of SAFEnetwork will have far greater impact, and that we’ll need to have clear workable process in place to survive that. If that happens, a small dedicated band will set up a new, more discrete, home I’m sure (using Decorum of course :wink:), and I may well be with them… if they’ll let me in lol. But things will change, no doubt about that. They always do, thank goodness.

@Al_Kafir scoffs that Devs are working on solving these issues, so it’s rubbish for me to say we can’t solve them for the time being, and that we have other important things to do. Well man, be my guest. I’m just saying I tried and failed, I’m not saying they can’t be solved ever, but please don’t underestimate the difficulties. It was a shock to me when I read a bit of Socrates while exploring Greece a few years ago, and learned that 5,000 years ago clever folk like him had set out all the problems of governance and what we should (but repeatedly don’t) do about them. Not one of the problems we have today with politicians, dictators, oligarchs, “democracy”, republics, monarchies, local councils, or online forums :slight_smile: etc etc is new. What old Socrates wrote about is still alive and well in microcosm right here, right now, on this forum. Humanity is still failing to solve those problems in a better way, and despite our best efforts so is this community, for now!

The community is itself creating that which it abhors. That’s not blaming, that’s my observation of what’s happened since the community formed, and I include everyone when I say “the community”. I agree with David about this. What we must avoid is “us” and “them” - that’s the key to solving this. And I think we will need to keep solving it again and again.

So I’ve failed at that - no we’ve failed at that - or are looking like failing at least from the trajectory were on. What I think I have achieved is being part of an exceptional community, while growing myself and being part of establishing a very able and dedicated team (a really marvellous team) and a way of working here that should I hope give this forum a good chance of remaining different, but still being able to grow massively with this project.

As for helping solve the problems of how humans can govern themselves in this situation, I’m ready to hand that baton over to another runner or runners. Any takers? :slight_smile:

On access to the database and PMs I think some mods do have access since about two months ago.

In order to prevent loss of the forum database, through sabotage of the backups for example, we decided to start uploading an encrypted copy to a public location known to members of the mod team. Not every mod has access to the decryption keys, but some do (I’m one), and so I assume would have the ability to start digging into the raw data. Not easy, but yes, I think some mods do have this access and like @neo I don’t like having it, because it now gives people another thing to think I’m going to explore for my own self interest, or others, and surely against theirs.

Maybe I should just not have said a word about this. It would have gone unnoticed. Well, that’s not me. I don’t deliberately select what I reveal to serve my own interests or for an easy life. That’s what I meant when I said I was very trustworthy earlier.

Now I really want to apologise here to every person I’ve helped decide to become a moderator. I’m still only just realising what a really awful position I’ve helped you step into. I’m sorry. It makes me angry too that we are regarded this way - even though I understand exactly why, because I’ve lived most of my life as one of “us”, and not one of “them”. Now I can see the whole stupid mess that humans are when it comes to governing ourselves at scale. And it makes me disillusioned.

Coming back to mods and access to PMs… the question for the community then: should we continue with this practice, or modify it, or what…

OMG another lengthy discussion arises out of openness… just sayin’ …but it is, and us mods are expected to debate all this internally again, and with everyone in the community who wants their say. It’s endless.

So I think we’re headed two ways… unmoderated, or moderated but without detailed discussion of so many issues. Or if you think “we” can do better, here’s the baton, I’m placing it on the floor as I don’t see any hands asking for it. Look, it’s yours…

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First off thank you for being honest about that. I’m not going to say I like the idea obviously, but I do respect you for being upfront about it and I value knowing too.

You are being waaay too hard on yourself dude. You haven’t failed at all, it’s just the same stumbling block all vibrant, cool, young, passionate communities go through. It’s growing pains, but like adolescence it could well define where the ship is headed.

When I alluded to a ‘suggestion I wanted to sleep on’, it was offering to pitch in to find a way to help. I know exactly how hard and how thankless what you guys do is, that’s why I saw sense by morning. /lazygit

However, I do love this community and I don’t want to see it fracturing, so maybe there is something that would help. But first… :wink:

RE Republic - don’t get me started. :wink: What we have here is a perfect example of extremely intelligent, wise and well-balanced moderators who have unassailable power to do good. All of your decisions seem to have been pretty fair as far as I’ve seen anyway, yet many are unhappy!? Why?

Well, in my opinion because power is just the projection of personal bias. No matter how wise or clever someone is they cannot appreciate what it is like to be someone else. When we project our bias out into the world it has consequences beyond the horizon of our perspective. Power enables good people to do harm unintentionally, simply by not being able to represent any opinion or frame of mind other than their own. We are all very limited beings and none of us should have any power over anyone else because when we do we cause harm with our black and white decisions. If we do have that power then we MUST be directly accountable to the people we impact, so there is a feedback loop to temper the negative effect of power. Elections every few years don’t work obviously… that’s not democratic, neither is mob rule. The jury system is how I see democracy. Complete freedom for everyone, no dominion, but arbitration to mitigate harm that’s achieve by informed democratic consensus. The informed bit is what separates wisdom of the crowd from mob rule imo and I don’t think it’s an insurmountable challenge :).

Ok, enough political theory lol. How about practical suggestion time.

Create a sticky thread entitled “Your forum, your rules, your say”.

I will offer to monitor and arbitrate discussion in that thread so mods don’t have to unless they want to. Once we have been able to achieve some kind of focus and consensus for what change we want to see in the rules I will bring that to you.

Is this a perfect idea? No! It requires people trusting me as if I were their legal representation or some shit. It also makes a lot of work for me. I can see janitor and many other shuddering at the thought of me being a mediator as some kind of solution.

What I can say is that I don’t want to do it and will happily pass the job to anyone else who does with even the slightest wavering of consensus in their favour.

I’m basically putting myself up for the impossible challenge of not letting my own bias interfere, but coordinating and refining the concerns of the community in an open way.

I don’t think it’s a great solution and I don’t think it scales well. However, given it will free the mods up from this kind of discussion and they’ll only have to deal with the odd focused message from us, it might work from their pov. From the pov of unhappy community members they have an avenue to effect change and be heard. And until they see me doing a crap job and decide it’s a failed experiment perhaps it’s worth a try?

Tbh I hope not. I’d rather be flamed for suggesting it. Imo the rings of power belong in mount doom, so we need direct, fluid and intelligent accountability. This is not that! But it might help or solve any specific issues by drawing attention to exactly what the problems are, instead of arguing endlessly about the theory of how we solve them.

Don’t you dare flinch from your position happybeing! The community would be MUCH worse off if you weren’t here, same for the rest of the mods and the more cynical aspect of the forum. This community dies if diversity is killed imo. Safenet will be fine and build many communities of it’s own over the coming decades, but this one IS special. It’s the first and you guys are the pioneers. Let’s keep it going and finds ways to deal with what are essentially simple and solvable problems.

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I’m personally not in favor of this sorry. Everyone is free to create a topic like that here in meta and I would of course look at it. But when I look at the new guidelines and the 3 topics about that subject, I only see a few people that want change. We take all opinion serious (even if it was just one person) and I like the fact you come up with ideas. You’ve been in our position as well on other forums so you know what to expect. But < 7 people are active in these 3 topics about moderation. The rest is mods replying. On a forum with 2250 members I would expect at least like 20 or 30 people to be active in these discussions. That would be like 1% of all forum members and that would be still very low!

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