A Second (vampire) network attack - discussion

Didn’t you see the news today? Just wait.

Not only that but there are just too many humans involved with a foundation. The rewards are better used to promote the network in an autonomous way, like PtP or something similar.

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I do not agree with this statement. We have no data on this and it is very risky, I remember the eth DAO fiasco… We have data that the foundations work well in favor of the projects for which they were created.

Let me be more articulate. I think a foundation for the network is fine. However, funding the foundation through an automatic farming reward is a problem.

Thank you. I hope more people realize that this has been my goal all along.

In this topic and in other topics, there are speculation expressed against me that are trying to distort what I am trying to achieve with this topic.

People who have expressed these speculations owe me an apology. You can apologize to me now or in 10 years, but all of you who hinted that I have behind-the-scenes goals are wrong and time will prove it 100% :dragon:

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I think you constantly bringing up this topic drives people away. You may mean well but I think it comes across to new folk as a reason not look deeper at the project. This topic is resurrected on a regular basis.

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Ignore the haters. I know you have been pushing this topic with good intent and are trying to get people to brainstorm a solution to it.

The challenge I see for you is coming up with a plausible set of conditions where an outside group could compete with this project. Imo, the more likely scenario would be if this project split along differences of opinion or different implementations, bad feelings result due to an argument and two community networks begin to compete. Isn’t this similar to what happened with BTC vs LTC?

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By far the most fundamental technical difference between Bitcoin and Litecoin are the different cryptographic algorithms that they employ. Bitcoin makes use of the longstanding SHA-256 algorithm, whereas Litecoin makes use of a comparatively new algorithm known as Scrypt.

Each copy of Safe will be using the same farmers, so vampire attacks are more likely to occur than splitting the community.

And with the examples from Bitcoin Cash, SushiSwap and Filestar, we see that such attacks are started by rich companies, not individuals.

I respectfully disagree. @Dimitar has thoughtfully presented his case and responded to questions from multiple people wanting clarification. Nothing wrong with that. I think his contributions and suggestions have been of immense importance to the understanding and planning of the project. I do think there are other, more egregious, posts driving people away though.

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If we’re beating dead horses. PtP.

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That horse is only sleeping

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Wasn’t the idea of alternative networks part of the design?

Iirc, possibly not, but I feel sure many years ago David stated that it would be encouraged.

I thought that was the whole reason for us being open source and not having licenses , enforceable or not.

I was never keen on this aspect but came to the conclusion that it is what it is.

Beating dead horses, yaay… Protective (restrictive, viral, freedom-enforcing etc) licensing directly protects against this.

At the moment the routing, node and client libraries are copyleft under one of the GPLs, meaning they will remain publicly viewable and auditable, but for example, transfers has a permissive license, MIT if I recall correctly from a week ago when I had a look.

To make my concern concrete, and to be corrected if I’m misunderstanding, this means a private company can take all the code, make minimal or substantial changes to transfers and anything else outside of the three libs mentioned above, and release a network with all the advertising and branding imaginable where transfers and other network functionality is completely closed source?

If that is really the case, I must admit to being concerned about competing networks. I am also baffled as to why the licensing would be like this?

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Where? (ten chars)

Well, look at the Ethereum Foundation - it gave us the public good UniSwap. Who do you think paid for the creation of the largest decentralized exchange in the world?

Edit: or it seems that I have memorized it wrong … Uniswap - Wikipedia

What’s their income stream? I couldn’t find any info. Is it from a specific subset of network rewards that would otherwise have gone to miners?

I’m very dubious about foundations in crypto. Start a business instead.

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I will do a more detailed study of the crypto foundations in the coming days to see what exactly is happening. :dragon:

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Hey @Dimitar - I finally checked out uniswap and their ‘vampire attack’ and the whole thing there a few days ago, and was surprised to learn that vampire attack seems to be a descriptive term based on the fact that it will suck liquidity away from uniswap

I suppose I’d imagined it in a far more sinister and sneaky way from your posts here. Just seems like healthy competition? Or I’m still missing some important details. So yes, I went in hoping for clarification and came away pushed further into confusion, saying to myself, but what is the terrible danger?

The idea behing uniswap is interesting though, thanks for throwing the whole thing out there.

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Yes, just a marketing strategy, not some kind of hack.

I have explained what is the danger (in my opinion) in detail on many topics in the forum, but here is a short summary.

Nobody knows what the future will hold. But everyone in the crypto tells a story that attracts people. When I entered the crypto the story behind Bitcoin was that it would be a payment system and indeed in 2014 I sent Bitcoin with a free transaction. The story at the moment is that it stores value.

Imagine how we run a test network that is successful and how a third party appears that sees this. It is reasonable to assume that this third party will be interested in making money. We see this every day in the crypto world.

David has repeatedly said that he is not interested in money. For people who are interested in money, this will be a sign of weakness. This is a signal of opportunity. Opportunity to tell a better story, opportunity to make money.

What would be a better story? We know that in the crypto world there is hatred for pre-farm coins. The Safe network tokens are 15% pre-farm. That’s why the “good” people who will copy our network will tell how their network will not have pre-farm tokens. How will it be fairer to people.

But that’s not all. They will use other techniques that have proven themselves in the crypto world. They will create a foundation that will fill their network with useful data with part of the network monetary inflation.

Thus, their network will grow at a speed that they can control. We see from Storj and FileCoin that this strategy works. Storj attracted 11k farms in 1 year with this strategy. These are 11k farms that are not farms in the Safe network!

Another trick they will use is to create a DeFi pool to pay tokens when stacking. This will simultaneously attract liquidity to their token plus will increase its price, because the tokens that are in the pool can not be sold, which artificially reduces the supply.

This is widely practiced by many projects at the moment, you can see how popular it is here: Soft Staking

The bottom line is that a copy of Safe can use techniques to artificially attract more people, creating a larger network than ours and, in the long run, slowing down the growth of our network and even destroying it completely. Remember a copy of Safe can copy all upgrades and all apps at once! Ie the network with a better economy will be the network that will exist (here I give an example with 2 networks, but I think there will be more).

EDIT: Just to add that I will personally fight for our network. There is no way to know which network will win, but personally I think we will win, because every army has leaders and we have very strong leaders. :love:

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How am I just now noticing your profile pic is the hand tattoo @Dimitar, haha. I’m up next after a stable test net, unless somebody steals second…

By the way whoever @maidsafe that writes up the dev updates should probably mention the first ever Safe Network tattoo! Just sayin

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