A Second (vampire) network attack - discussion

Just to remind you that a vampire attack has the best chance of success while the Safe Network is small and new. Obviously, when we are giant like Bitcoin and Ethereum this type of attack will be irrelevant.


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More interesting, who attack small network ?

What they get from small tiny networks?

The attacker should know all of rust based Maidsafe code and can modify code. This level dev team attack small early safenetwork. Hum well I dont agree.

If we had this conversation 7 years ago, I would agree with you. But with the success of Filecoin, more and more big businesses are looking at storage solutions as the next big thing.

It is inevitable that we will be noticed.

There are smart people in the world. People with money. They will steal the technology. That’s ok, competition and everything else, but should we give up without a fight?


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Yeap “The world is competition!”

BUT

Except for the ambiguous logic of saying, accurately present the logic that MadeSafe can be overtaken by other teams in an open source decentralized project field.

And what is the user number and business of Filecoin? I never think this project is already success. The investors are good for refund but I want to ask, do you use Filecoin ??

A vampire Safe copy doesn’t have to succeed to kill us. It is enough to steal our farmers and our network to die. Whether the copy will survive after that will be irrelevant, because our network will be dead. So we need to play the speculation game too…


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What is your logic ?

“Vampire safe doesn’t have to succeed to kill us, It is enough to steal our farmer and our network to die”

What is the basis of this sentence.
How does “stealing farmers” have a causal relationship with “network dying”?

Do you really really really think just “high yield” can take every famer from Safenework?

P.S. It is open source project, why you use “steal” ? It is criminal?

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I have already explained all this many times in the topic. We do not all have to agree. It’s important for me that smart people in the community like @mav see the need to help the network grow in its early days:


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Well, I dont think this attack vector is reasonable logic. Because you dont explain.

But you think that is important do what you can do.

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Everything in life is just probabilities. No one knows the future, neither me nor you. It would be great if I am wrong in my risk assessment. :love:


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Farmers are not bitcoin miners.
They are not people who have bought specialised machines to perform a task.
Nor are they an established group. A farmer can be easily replaced.

And furthermore…
Why would a farmer, usually a SNT holder, help to lower its value?

Why would a farmer go to a network with no guarantee of a future when, in the worst case scenario, he could be on both networks?

Why would a customer switch networks and pay twice as much to keep his data?

Your whole argument is based on a premise that makes no sense at all.

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Let’s hope you’re 100% right and I’m just 100% wrong. So in case I’m wrong, what do you mind my practical suggestions? What would it hurt to have an ERC20 token? Or to systematically upload useful data on the network from day one?


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This is being discussed now on how to archive internet sites and also copy thinks like wikipedia over and gov public data sets over. Hopefully this is will happen without need to specially do it

The ERC20 token idea is also being discussed to have Safe Network Token to an ERC20 equivalent bridge now. May not get traction but it may too get traction. Of course centralised exchanges can run a Safe client and use Safe wallets of their own to receive/send Safe Network Tokens and thus allow trading of it. Decentralised ones are perhaps where an ERC20 equivalent may speed up trading before a native solution is found. Maybe the solution will be to have teh decenteralised one on Safe itself

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I’m all for uploading data. The value of the network is its data. Good data will draw folks to use the network instead of an empty clone.

I was and remain against subsidising farmers though. They are replaceable and expendable.

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Interestingly, Chia are on opposite view. Would you comment on their decision to potentially subsidize their farmers? My understanding is that they want to do this in order not to lose farmers to a competitive product. What do you think?


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What are your thoughts on central banks printing money?

That they will continue to do so while I am alive. So the only way to keep value to myself is to own real estate / business / cryptocurrencies.


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It’s a pretty similar dynamic. Subsidising farmers is the equivalent printing money, it will create a bubble. It might work for a time, but eventually that bubble will pop… especially with a much more simple economy like the Safe Network. (let’s not discuss central banking etc here though, that’s for another thread, and I’m not voicing an opinion on govermnment economic policy here, it was just an analogy :grinning:)

Again, and I’m sorry to keep on repeating myself everyone, but this argument keeps on coming up: the value is in the data, and the success of the Network depends on it being as useful for people to read data, and store their data.

The heavy subsidies of things like Filecoin and Chia etc I predict will come back to bite them, and they will see a rapid collapse… because it’s just not sustainable.

We need to focus on demand, not supply. Because if we get demand right; there will be zero problems with supply.

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Everything is a bubble. Everything without exception. Filecoin is a bubble. Bitcoin is a bubble. Ethereum is a bubble. As long as only 1% of humanity uses the crypto, it will continue to be so.

There is a high probability that there will be speculation and no demand with Safe, because the mass of people still do not believe in decentralization.

If they believed, there would be millions and millions of people here. They are not here. It can take decades to educate enough people to make the network self-sufficient.

So it is good to keep discussing how we can attract more people, not to reassure ourselves that it is enough to build the network and people will come.

Chia are not stupid, what they do is very reasonable and they have the option of using the pre-mined tokens or not using them. They are preparing for an uncertain future. It is also good for us to prepare for such a future and not rely only on what we want to happen.


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If there is good data on the network, the farmers will get rewards for serving it. I see it as good data leads to good farmer rewards.

I don’t think the reverse holds true either. Having lots of farmers doesn’t imply good data will get stored on them. Like a fart in the wind, farmers will dissappear when the subsidies dry up, unless there is sustainable data demand feeding their rewards.

Therefore, if I was to subsidise anything, it would be good data in all guises. This will both build value in the network and reward farmers. Good apps build on good data, as do communities, which will amplify the effect.

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Why do you immediately assume that I am proposing to subsidize bad data? Should I explicitly write every time that we are talking only about a data useful for all mankind?


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