A Second (vampire) network attack - discussion

Nobody is arguing this point though, just saying this is not the totality of our launch endeavours.

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I agree with this for the most part; although there will be an additional subset of people who work in computer science; developers, IT, etc.; the ones who aren’t already in crypto.

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Even a disgusting Frankenstein like Sia has 1 million users in 1 year, but that’s ridiculously small, so I equate it to 0.

I’m sure Safe will have several million users in the first year, we’ll all promote it. The question is what happens after the initial interest that has accumulated over these 15 years begins to fade and copys start to appear.

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How are you going to decide what is useful data though before doing this, and then know that it was actually useful afterwards?

The only surefire way to do this is to create the tools and environment to allow people to make that decision for themselves, through making connections between people, and people and their own data. The Network that can do that, is the one that will win out.

Just pumping data onto the Network in order to win out some sort of speculation game is just creating a bubble that will eventually pop. We need to think beyond that.

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You know that they will copy everything we create? Everyone. One. Tool.

You know that they will copy everything we create? Everyone. One. Tool.

I’ll start by saying that I am deeply sympathetic to your argument line. There are however built in characteristics in SAFE that are deeply problematic to copy outright.

The code? Sure, but can you maintain it and improve it without the tacit knowledge? Faster than a more deeply motivated and knowledgeable community can? Will your modifications of the basic parameters even function, or are there landmines?

The data? Nope. Lack of easy indexing is a win here, at worst a delaying tactic. But sunk costs are sunk costs, every step in the race after launch is another user onboarded.

The community? Feuck that. I’m staying here. The devs that can code for SAFE day 0 are also.

… etc.

I do believe your argument has merit, but I think that @JimCollinson got it in one shot. If the endgame is clear, the tools are there, and this is the first mover, the rest follows. We should be focusing on onboarding. Every day will matter, and I think Fleming is the starting gun. If people mess around with this and realize the potential, then game on. It’s one more reason I support delaying until feature complete… because the second others know what is at stake the real game starts.

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Like I said, I hope things happen the way you and Jim describe them. However, I do not see an argument against preparing a contingency plan. Can you explain why you think we shouldn’t take the time to do this?

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I don’t think that there is a general counter argument. Mine is that the most cost effective counter we can organize right now is to increase any positive feedback. UX, onboarding, community. Every resource that could be thrown at shadow boxing an opponent could be better spent if focused on aligning community here. Otherwise, obviously open to concrete suggestions and contingency planning.

As an edit for thought, I will add one of the most succinct arguments I have heard (It was for bitcoin, but relevant for discussion) “More cost effective to participate than attack”

Please read this:

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Listing on exchanges is big business now, they dont care about the project, only about how many users it will bring them or how much you will pay for the listing. Partnerships can be better, depends on conditions though.

With the grow rate we are hoping for, direct marketing has very little effect. We need things that scale:

  1. We are first on the new ground, we name things. Tupperware, Kleenex, to google something, lots of exapmles around. There are thousands of cryptocurencies today but non-crypto people still say Bitcoin when they mean crypto in general.
    Look at things like Binance Academy, they are not making advertisement, they are educating people and make sure poeple know the “right” terms and services. Nobody is going to share ads to their friends, but education is more likely to spread naturaly.

  2. Developers making apps on Safe or apps using Safe somehow. If there is good documentation, guides and support on how to make things using Safe Network, that is the value over any copy-network. Any money spent on supporting app developers can be 1000+times more worth than spent on direct marketing to end users. Not bribing developers with bonuses, but making their life easier.

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One of Safe Network’s strengths is NOT being part of the crypto space as it is now. It isn’t a hard argument to make because it’s true. Safe predates this by a long way, was the first ICO (or one of the first) and has proven itself not to be a money making play for the founder. It isn’t Blockchain, is also a massive positive differentiator, and so on.

I’m not convinced the existing crypto folks are going to be the easiest to convince to join either. There are many, many projects for them to choose from, a new one every few weeks and they are generally skeptical about Safe because it has been around so long, and because the technology is unfamiliar etc.

So it could be detrimental to move Safe more into that space than to differentiate from it. I think there’s an excellent story there about values, being true to them when it would have been easier to do the other thing, by for example including VC investors or partnering with the devil in exchange for the MaidSafe technology and know how, and here David’s history is an asset, and the community itself. David has fought hard and sweat blood and nearly been bankrupted, all as I understand it, to keep this project true to his values and vision as a truly decentralised people’s network for the good of humanity.

Isn’t this, after all, why many of us are here?

So I’m still not convinced we should focus much on the crypto space or worry about various forms of ‘attack’ either from that, or because people see us as part of it. I think we are evidently not like the image people have of it, and that is one of our strengths in reaching out beyond it.

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It is easy to create a twitter clone too. There are probably open source alternatives, just as good, out there right now.

You could also dump random data on it. Does that mean you can replace twitter? No… you need valuable data that people want to read. You need users and their data. It is the users’ data that gives twitter value. It is the network effect that keeps people going back to it.

People can clone the network, the apps, the tools. They can bribe folks to farm for them, but dumping nonsense data on it too. Do users care about that? Why would they? Does it improve their user experience? No. Having 1000x more capacity than the network needs does nothing for users. IMO, focusing on available storage size is missing the point completely.

What Maidsafe have is ability and integrity. People respect that, just as they do in this community. There are many reasons why users will like this, as will developers.

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We need all suggestions chap, I Am glad you prod these things, I really am, but there’s a lot to consider and many opinions. All of them good as all of them make us think :wink:

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The issue with giving part of the inflation coins to a foundation that I can see , whether its a good idea or not is that it wasn’t part of the initial plan.
Ppl invested expecting certain outcomes and these things can’t just be changed that easily without possible bad consequences.
Sure, alot of other crypto projects do it, but I don’t think we should just because others do.

Better to do this, not as a contingency plan but as an integral part of launch and post-launch plan, and not just any data but important, useful data. Arrange, in the beginning, to upload a giant database (or part of it) that people actually use (Internet Archive, Wikipedia, etc.). If this is done successfully, especially if Safe is given some kind of exclusive rights, the threat of copycats pretty much goes out the window. It would be like someone trying to compete with Starlink.

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So true! But how do we ignite the network effect? How can we get over the threshold? What is the game plan? I believe @Dimitar wants us to capitalize on the biggest network effect out there, so we get the network over the first hurdles.

I see the crypto world as a perfect place to get our message out to the world. We need to capitalize on the attention of this space. Media, bloggers, and traders. Make it easy to convert/buy SNT from any crypto. Attract the entrepreneurs/programmers in this space to invest there time in building the Safe Network for the future.

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Well, I’d say we have the following:

  1. First mover advantage and reputation built up by more than a decade of work.
  2. Dev team who understand the software inside and out and can respond effectively, working with the community, to resolve issues.
  3. Dev team who are motivated by the long term health, openness and growth of the network.
  4. Community which has been following Safe Network’s development since the start and will follow it after launch.

Maybe we should look at it from a user perspective?

  1. If I’m going to pay once to store data forever, long term value is more important to me than short term savings.
  2. If I’m going to store my private data on a network, I need to trust it. I will look to a reputable team to not be changing the binaries or other shenanigans to defraud me.
  3. If I’m going to move away from big corps (facebook, twitter, google, etc), then I will be motivated to avoid replacing them with another big corp. I will want to align with a team that shadows my motivations to change things for the better.
  4. Using the genuine article, built upon sound principles and determination appeals to me more than helping someone who has copied it to make money.
  5. I will be telling like minded folks to join the original network for all of the above reasons.
  6. I would rather donate my disk space for free to a project with principles, than for pennies to a network with none.
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Interesting development. Might Wikimedia Enterprise be a potential candidate for Safe Network relationship?

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From what Chia does, we can conclude that it is very likely that a copy of Safe will use the same tactics to impose itself and try to destroy us:

Why are we pre-farming?
Chia has a novel business model to both, lower volatility of the coin and increase adoption. By loaning Chia and managing the interest rates of those loans as well as other tools like buying our stock with chia coins, we hope to lower the quarter to quarter volatility of the coin. To drive adoption, we intend to loan Chia to Global 5000 companies who will use it to pay their international vendors quickly, less expensively, and more securely. We also intend to use the strategic reserve to aid development and adoption. We plan to do things like invest in promising startups in the Chia ecosystem, potentially increase farming rewards during limited periods of time to spur additional farming, and fund corporations paying 105% of the value of their international payables in Chia instead of fiat currency.

I recall my suggestions for preventive action on our part to deal with this danger:


Privacy. Security. Freedom

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Why you dont copy Bitcoin or Eth ? How about vampire attack them ? I encourage your challenge!