A Second (vampire) network attack - discussion

Here’s a big picture :lol:

@frabrunelle :dragon:


Love that you have “SAFE” across your knuckles so it’s the last thing a Bitcoin maximalist sees when you punch them in the face :rofl:


The only drawback is that the fascists think that the Safe logo is a disguised fascist cross and together with my shaven head I look like one of them …


What is Maidsafe’s tactical strategy to prevent Safe Network from being eclipsed?

I see criticism of the crypto industry. There does not seem to be a willingness to play the crypto game from Maidsafe. I understand where they are coming from, as much of it is shilling bs, but this does not address preservation of the Safe Network in light of the decision not to be a crypto company. When this is combined with the decision to open source the code, it seems that it make it impossible for Safe Network to come out on top. Playing the crypto game with Safe Network would not be empty shilling as much of the crypto world is.

For example to be a top player in crypto we need to have 10 top exchanges. MAID only has 1 real exchange. What is the strategy behind this and how does it support Safe Network in the long run? I hear we have to have a working network but that is simply not true. ERC20 is done everyday in the crypto world yet we are in the software industry not crypto. How does not having ERC20 benefit MAID and the Safenetwork? The debate has gone on for literally years and not having ERC20 I’d argue has harmed the project. If Maidsafe holds MAID and relies on its price avoiding the crypto game only seems to harm the project. I know there are some efforts to get listed on some exchanges but it not a serious full time effort.

Open source code allows for those willing to play the crypto game and list on exchanges along with the various strategies @Dimitar brought up to overshadow Safe Network. I’m not against open source and I see why to be truly decentralized it should be open source. But when combined with the “strategy” of not doing what is required in crypto seems to harm the future of the project.

If Maidsafe is just a software company then it needs to advertise and do PR ahead of releases to drive sales just like a software company. In this case MAID but eventually SNTs. There is a market cap of $271 million dollars and no marketing which any software company this size would have. I know Maidsafe it self is not the market cap but what I don’t get is the hard strategy that is being followed for the future of the network.

@Dimitar I used to get annoyed when you brought up vampire networks regularly. But with the strategy being followed it seem that it will ensure Safe Network is not the largest network. Again I’m confused by the strategy and how it benefits Safe Network. I finally see what you’ve been trying to get at all this time. Sorry for not getting it earlier.


We can’t hold David responsible for this. He is an engineer and wants to deal with the network. In reality, it doesn’t matter which network. Whether ours or another, he will be able to do what he wants.

This is not to say that he is not interested in whether the initial investors will be able to recoup their investment. I’m sure he cares. What I am saying is that it is not his responsibility. This is our responsibility. We are the Safe Network.

Don’t worry friend, we all have one goal and I understand it so I don’t get angry with anyone when they criticize my personality :love:


I understand. I’m not holding anyone responsible. Just trying to understand the strategy. I think it is why we should bring someone on as a community to handle these aspects of the business full time.

He’s maid it clear he wants people to recoup their investment. I know he cares. Yes it is our responsibility to get the marketing and PR person hired and funded full time.

It matters to me that our network succeeds. We have ethical good folk behind this network. I’d hate to see it copied and bastardized by greedy people. It worries me.


Well we have a community marketing fund. You can make a suggestion that the money from it be used for this. :dragon:

I’m talking about a full time person hired by the community to work on exchanges, building partnerships. Somebody with a title that is semi official. This way marketing and PR don’t take huge amounts of time from the team. As a community we could surely raise the funds. I’d donate to hire someone. I lost my business due to COVID but I’d still donate. I think it’s vital to have a marketing effort at this point.


Thanks for moving it @Dimitar

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It’s pretty crazy and unconventional but what is Maidsafe if none of those, right? I think the strategy (which may worry some) is literally just to deliver the product that was mostly an idea but an idea that has kept some of us here for several years. We can see what it will be and what Jim has shown is when the hard stuff is soon over that there will be something for everyone that is easy, and easy is rare in crypto.
It should stand on its own and speak for itself. People should naturally notice.

On the topic of being in crypto, we obviously are aligned but it’s almost more like Maidsafe is DARPA or something. Not super flashy or sexy (until the UI is integrated) treating it more like infrastructure. Might be missing on seizing some opportunities I’ll agree but I believe at this point it’s more about the sunken cost fallacy on many fronts.
Maidsafe has been through the wringer and dealt with exchanges, a team that grew too fast, expensive offices, etc. so now they have leaned down to basically just engineers and progress has never been better and the network is closer than ever so to stop and focus so hard on something that might come easier after launch (when they already have so many negative experiences) seems like a sunk cost compared to a close delivery.

Just how I play it out in my head,

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Can you explain a bit more how this differs from normal competition?

On a related note, burstcoin has gone from a peak network size of 650 PB in September 2020 to now being around 1/3 that at about 250 PB (source). Do you think this might be the result of a vampire attack?


It is no different from any competition, although I think a more appropriate comparison is with war, because the victory of one network is death to another with high probability (because all networks compete for the same resource - the farmers).

I have said this before - my idea to raise this topic is to discuss whether there is a way to make the economy of our network better.

So far, everything I’ve read in the forum is just discussions about the internal economy of the network, but the external one is just as important to take into account.

So, my specific proposals are the following:

  • creation of an ERC20 token to give us access to the liquidity in the eth network.

Creating plans to be triggered when / if needed.

  • Plan for artificial growth of the network by injecting useful data into it if the network does not grow as fast as we want. Ie if we want it to grow by 1TB a day, but it grows by 1GB then we have a plan to run.
  • Plan to create a farming pool to help with liquidity.

These are specific things we can discuss to improve the competitiveness of our network.

I don’t follow Burstcoin and I don’t know anything about it except what it is…


As others have said. It’s not really an attack, it’s competition, and then it’s also a rising tide that can lift all boats.

What is to be done?

You’re putting your finger on it here.

As I keep on saying, it’s all about the data, and making it as useful as possible. This is what will determine if there is to be one network to rule them all, and what that might be.

There’s not really anything such as “artificially” adding useful data, or not. If it’s useful, it’s useful!

And remember, that useful data also means having your friends using the Network too… the data becomes far more useful if I can easily share it with other people, or connect and communicate seamlessly.

It’s also why I don’t really think you can characterise it as a vampire attack, or even think of it like a hard fork ala bitcoin, because none of the data can be forked along with the Network.

So again, how do we protect the Network from the things you are worried about here? Make it as useful as possible.


You see that the use of other networks is 99.99% speculation?

What I’m saying is that if Safe is like human baby for the network to grow we will have to help in the first days as we help a human baby. Yes, the network may be like an antelope baby and immediately stand up and run, but it may not be so? How much we want the network to grow per day? 10 tb? 100 tb?

And if the network does not run alone, we should have a ready plan to redirect part of the monetary inflation to supply the network with data until it starts running alone. Let us be the strong. Let us use all the tricks that our competitors can use against us. Let us be the greatest and scariest in the savannah :dragon:


You are limiting 100% to crypto space, scuttlebut, matrix, signal, solid (??) and more are networks that exist out there. I am not saying you are 100% wrong @Dimitar none of us knows, but I am hinting you are potentially limiting opportunities by not considering non-crypto network successes.


Yes, because they spat in my face while I was carrying posters. Did they spit in your face? Do you understand what hatred will be poured on us when they start sharing porn with children in the Safe Network?

Only crypto people will touch Safe. Ordinary people are very, very far from us. Dozens of years away.

No, and I am not understanding what you are saying here?

Safe, the vision is pre-crypto, we do know that. I suspect that is where we are in disagreement. I don’t believe it will only be users from the crypto space that want and will use Safe.

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Do you know that there was a pedophile in the forum that we banned? He promoted openly here …

I know any decentralised permissionless network will have such people, it’s an old old argument. They drive on roads also live in houses and eat our food. I believe education helps a lot, but banning or trying to ban is an impossible thing or at least the demarcation lines are impossibly complex, if not impossible.

I also think Safe will facilitate, doctors, researchers, children, families and … well everyone (Secure Access for … well you know).


Exactly. In the same way that Bitcoin was attacked by the media, we will be and will have to prove ourselves. That means we need time. We need time to convince normal people to use the Safe Network. If we are lucky it will happen immediately. If we are unlucky, we must have a plan on how to survive the speculative stage - we need decentralized exchanges, we need liquidity, we need the network to grow. How can we achieve this if it does not happen by itself?

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