A Second (vampire) network attack - discussion

It’s not for the second time Dimitar brought it up, there were dozens of attempts of his to show there will be attempts to do this. Based on the theory of games there will. It’s only good he is talking about it since we can still do things to prevent this scenario.


But what would be driving this more competitive alternative with higher rewards and/or more sustainable rewards…?

  • More Users
  • More Growth
  • More Data

That would come from something more useful and appealing to end more users.

It could happen, yes. But the way to defend against it is to focus on the data and making is useful, not the the token price/speculation.


Well yes to clarify, the relative cost of storing the same data on the network goes down with more farmers/resources, so it becomes cheaper to use for the end users, there for increasing demand once more etc.


Do you think that the foundation can upload for free useful data - for example Wikipedia?

Which foundation are you talking about here?

But yeah, anyone is free to contribute data to the network. Wikipedia would be amazing, and I could see that people might want to do that philanthropically, perhaps even wikipedia itself, as it might meet their aims perhaps at a lower cost than traditional hosting.

They always seem to be on a shoogly peg financially, although at least with Safe they would have their data accessible perpetually, even if their funding ran out in future.

The internet archive would be another organisation too, and we have of course talked with them a fair bit in the past, as their hosting costs are huge, and centralised. They are basically waiting for us to get it up and running!


I did not know about this. Do I understand you sacrificed your own shares to relieve the burden of the company?

Nevertheless, I think you are really great man @Dirvine, worth admiring by future generations. Hopefully, you make it to the history books!

Sideway thought: To be honest, I also started to trust in some really weird way in you - just after a few months on this forum… I usually do not trust people much. Hats off to you!

I see there is a logic in this statement. Income is in SN, debt expenses are in SN. In that way, you are not exposed to price. But still. If MaidSafe makes a high inflation distribution scheme, its without debt quickly. A slow scheme means a long time paying off the debt. Do I get it right? Isn’t there a conflict of interest with investors?

Anyway, if the scheme is set up so it will be paid in 5y, I think it’s a slow enough scheme in my estimation so I am not afraid of inflation in that scenario.

Thank you!!!


The Safe Foundation, which receives 2.5% of all inflation on the network.

If Nano currency can survive with out any reward system to run nodes and be representative, there is good chance that we will achieve it.
The only reason to run a node is, that it is quite cheap, you can make PoW for your transactions yourself and you support network you like and probably keep value of your coins. The community is also responsible to diversify voting power to as many representatives as possible to mitigate risk of bad behaviour on their owners.

For SafeNetwork that would mean if price is too high, community have to add more storage, if price is too low add more data and any larger holder of SNT should invest time and resources to protect own investment and not wait for others.

Anyway I also think that some other communities will run own fork as replacement of community torrent trackers. They never got reward to seed them and never paid to upload, but with own network, they will have much better control over data and privacy (and after hitting million users will rise the coin price and be super rich :slight_smile:)

Anyway we are the ones who can only grow to be bigger and bigger and we will attract user from all other sites and countries and probably “steal” some from Sia, Storj or Filecoin.

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A new foundation you are proposing here you mean?

My knee-jerk reaction would be a worry about neutrality. The network is designed not to discriminate on data in any way, so it might this be a potential to taint that? A foundation deriving it’s resource from the network itself deciding on what data to store for free?

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Not a new foundation. The current foundation, but with changed activity in support of the network. The way there is an Ethereum Foundation in support of the Ethereum Network

I think you mean the MaidSafe Foundation.


Yes, thanks for the correction, friend :happyant:

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Yes, well, lent them long term in a subordinated loan (so will be paid back but after any other debts/investor
payouts etc.).

It could be, but IIRC there is no or next to no interest. As a subordinated loan, I cannot demand payment etc. or cause damage to the company. As a CEO I would prefer debt-free ASAP though, so kinda, maybe. All in all, I don’t see any problems or real conflicts at the moment, but always side effects, so happy to keep looking and making sure.

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There is farming rewards, maybe pay the provider rewards, pay the core devs reward and initial once only allocation of 5% of 4B for investors.

Where is there anything going to Maidsafe foundation?

I only see ongoing payments to those providing resources to the network being paid for that.

The foundation owns 50% of the company’s shares. While only the MaidSafe company is the only developer team working on Safe, all 5% of inflation goes to them, with 2.5% going to the foundation.

I believe that a vampire attack can only take place at the beginning of the network (1-3 years), so it does not matter that in the future the foundation will not have the money to support the network, we will be out of this danger.

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There should be some way of providing a bulk rate for these heavyweights, or some other extra incentive. I tend to agree with Dimitar that we need to go out of our way to attract some large data contributors in the early stages of the network.

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How are you calculating the inflation? Running costs will reduce the profits. Wages paid and so on.

There is more likely to be the equivalent of 0.25% profit. with 1/2 going to the foundation. Or a lot less. Its profit and the coins sold to realise the profit in usable spendable money so the foundation can do its core objectives which have do not include building or assisting the network. They have to obey the law for charities if they want to maintain their status.

Also there will be people from outside of Maidsafe doing core development. Well there is already with some others providing PRs

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Sia’s daily trade is 7 million$, FileCoin’s is 250 million$. We will be somewhere between these two numbers. In any case, we are talking about millions of $ a month for MaidSafe and the Foundation…

I’m not sure I agree. They already get economies of scale, and it will be vital to maintain accessibility to ordinary individuals with consumer devices for farming. Let’s not deliberately industrialise it like Bitcoin… otherwise privacy becomes more unattainable for ordinary folk.


That is trade. Nothing to do with farming. The 5% dev rewards come when farming is done.

The trading is speculation and can see millions traded per day with no increase in coinage.

Also the foundation is a charity and is required by law to benefit those it was set up to benefit.

Also there is a major, huge difference between the amount traded per day and the value of farming per day